45. Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde (Episcopal) - I Can Learn to Be Brave: Building Courage One Step at a Time

45. Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde (Episcopal) - I Can Learn to Be Brave: Building Courage One Step at a Time

Alexis welcomes back Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde, Episcopal Bishop of Washington, D.C., for a deeply hopeful conversation about courage, faith, and her beautiful new children's book, I Can Learn to Be Brave- releasing July 7th!

Known around the world for her sermon calling for mercy toward LGBTQ people and immigrants, Bishop Budde reflects on the quieter acts of bravery that prepare us for life's defining moments. Together, Alexis and Bishop Budde explore why courage begins in childhood, why adults need this message just as much as children, how churches can rebuild trust after church hurt, what faithful public witness looks like in a polarized world, and why the future of the Church could depend on ordinary people willing to take one faithful step at a time.

This conversation is an invitation to raise courageous kids, become more courageous ourselves, and imagine a Christianity rooted in humility, inclusion, compassion, hope, and the teachings of Jesus.

💬 In This Episode

• Bishop Budde's new children's book, I Can Learn to Be Brave
• Why courage is something we learn and practice
• Raising courageous kids through faith
• Why adults need bravery too
• Spiritual formation and listening to the Holy Spirit
• Church hurt, deconstruction, and rebuilding trust
• Christian nationalism and loving our neighbors
• Ministry in the digital age
• LGBTQ inclusion and women in ministry
• Why ordinary people change history
• Building the future of the Church one faithful step at a time
• A beautiful closing prayer for anyone needing hope today

👥 People & Resources Mentioned

• Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde – @mariannbudde
• I Can Learn to Be Brave  is available for purchase on The Sacred Slope Book Reccos List: https://bookshop.org/shop/thesacredslope
• Illustrated by Holly Hatam – @hollyhatamillustration
• Flamingo Books, an imprint of Penguin Young Readers – @penguinkids
• Rev. Gerlyn Henry - @gerlynhenry
• Pastor Paul Drees - @pastorpauldrees
• Sharon McMahon – @sharonsaysso
• Jonathan Eig - @joneig
• Rich Villodas – @richvillodas
• Adam Hamilton – @revadamhamilton

Transcript

Alexis (00:00)
I do think that a lot of people are in a lot of despair right now. I think there's a lot of apathy.

Mariann Budde (00:03)
Mm-hmm.

Alexis (00:06)
think there's a lot of feeling like my voice doesn't make a difference. Like who cares if I'm brave or not? I just want the really, big, powerful people to be brave. I don't need to be brave. but there's something that's happening here about bravery. And I'm just wondering what could that world look like in a year from now in five years from now if we actually did this? What do you hope it to look like?

Mariann Budde (00:15)
Mm-hmm.

way to frame the essentially the same thing that you're saying is that it's already happening, but it's happening the way you know it's been described. Sometimes when you're moving toward a change, you're taking these small incremental steps and you don't know where you are in the arc of it, right? it doesn't feel like anything because you don't yet have momentum behind you.

Alexis (00:50)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mariann Budde (00:56)
Or the countervailing force is so strong that your effort is kind of washed over by what's coming at you. And those are all very real phenomena in the human story. And we never really know where we are in those arcs. And maybe what Sharon and the others are trying to point out to us, Jonathan I did the same thing when he wrote The King book, to point out to us is that

Every person that we acknowledge is showing up in the moment in a moment of greatness, though every one of those people were ordinary people who were on a trajectory, and they never knew until it happened that they were going to be part of something bigger.

Alexis Rice (01:47)
Welcome to the sacred slope, where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground. I'm Alexis Rice. And if you're new here, thanks for joining. My hope with the sacred slope is simple.

I want to introduce you to Christians you might have never met otherwise, different denominations, different countries, different life experiences, different stories, because the more people I've met over this last year, the bigger, more expansive, and more hopeful my faith has become. I've had conversations with bishops, pastors, priests, theologians, scientists, artists, musicians, and everyday Christians from around the world. We've talked about church hurt deconstruction.

Rebuilding faith, women in ministry, LGBTQ plus inclusion, Christian nationalism, anti-racism, science, justice, and what it really means to follow Jesus. before my guest and I started recording today, Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde asked me a question. I showed her my book collection and she said, after all these conversations,

what are you learning? I told her, I am genuinely more hopeful than I have been in a long time. I feel like I have a clear vision for what our Christian faith can become. Not because the world has gotten easier. It's not. but I have met so many people who are living another way with deep spirituality and love for neighbor.

I've met pastors who lead with humility instead of power, churches that choose welcome over fear, Christians who quietly love their neighbors, protect the vulnerable, and keep showing up with courage, with bravery, even when nobody's watching. I see people working with servant humility. And for a long time, I wondered if that version of Christianity was wishful thinking. But I don't wonder anymore. I've met these people.

And spending time with them is changing me. It's changing the way I see the future of church. It's changing the way I think about courage in this moment. And most of all, it has really made me hopeful again. It's hopeful because I feel like if I am an ordinary person who can be empowered, I know that you can be too. And I wanted you to meet these people. And that's why this podcast exists. Today's guest is one of those people.

we're talking about Bishop Budde's brand new children's book, I Can Learn to Be Brave.

By Mariann Edgar Budde, the Episcopal Bishop of Washington, D.C., illustrated by Holly Hatan, the number one New York Times bestselling illustrator of Dear Girl. It is so gorgeous, you guys, and I am so excited for you to see a little bit of it, to hear a little bit about it. If you're a parent, a grandparent, a teacher, pastor, children's ministry volunteer, a librarian, I think you're gonna want a copy of this.

unfolds in this conversation is about teaching little kids how to be brave, but it's also about learning bravery for ourselves.

It's about courage and relationships. It's about listening to the Holy Spirit. It's about becoming the kind of person who is ready when courage is really required of us. So before we begin, I'd like to invite you into this conversation a little bit differently. If you're driving, keep your eyes on the road. But if you're walking or running or folding laundry, sitting down with coffee or having a quiet moment, I'd like to invite you to slow down.

Take a breath. Notice your body. Notice what you're carrying today. Notice what feels heavy. Notice what gives you hope. And as you listen to Bishop Budde today, pay attention to what stirs in your spirit. See what's comforting you. See where you're being challenged. Maybe you'll recognize that one small brave step.

Maybe you've been avoiding. Or maybe you'll realize that you've been brave all along and simply needed someone to remind you to go ahead and take the next step. For some of you, it's been a long time since you've experienced pastoral care. And my hope is that this conversation gives you a little bit of that today. I invite you to listen with an open heart, with curiosity, for the quiet nudges of the Holy Spirit. And as you listen, consider what your next faithful step might be.

probably going to be something small, it maybe something that changes a life. Whatever it is, I hope this conversation gives you the courage to take it. Let's get into my conversation with Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde

Alexis Rice (06:59)
Welcome back to the Sacred Slope Friends where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground. I'm Alexis Rice and today we have a very special guest returning to the show. Someone I look up to immensely and talk about often on this podcast, Hi Bishop Budde. Oh, thank you for being here. I used to think that courage belonged to extraordinary people.

Mariann Budde (07:14)
Good to see you again, Alexis, it's so good to be back.

Alexis Rice (07:23)
The kind of people who somehow knew exactly what to say when history came calling. And then I met you and I realized that I'd been asking the wrong question. Like so many people, I watched your sermon at the National Cathedral and I wondered, how does someone become that brave? when you first joined me on the podcast back in December, we talked about your book, this one, We Can Be Brave, which I

Mariann Budde (07:30)
You

Alexis Rice (07:51)
love And I thought we'd spend most of our time talking about that one extraordinary moment. But really, we talked about all the ordinary ones, all the ordinary moments of bravery that lead up to the big ones. You said that courage isn't something that we suddenly discover when the spotlight finds us. The spotlight simply reveals the courage that we've been quietly practicing all along. And I just, haven't stopped

thinking about that. And in fact, that conversation has really changed me. And I found myself wondering if I should try to be brave myself. And so I actually sent an email that I wasn't sure about, but I reached out to Reverend Gerlyn Henry, who is an Anglican priest in Canada, and Pastor Paul Drees, who's a Lutheran pastor in the United States, for an idea that eventually has become the very first Sacred Slope pastor's lab.

thank you for that what we ended up doing was bringing together pastors from over 23 countries, all different denominations. We had Catholics and Protestants, I invited you and thank you for showing up as well to support fellow clergy. We had straight and queer pastors, male and female, from all around the world who all share hope that

Mariann Budde (08:43)
Wow, my.

Alexis Rice (09:07)
If more pastors could feel equipped to be courageous public voices right now online and in social media rooted in love and compassion and the teachings of Jesus in a time where our faith online is often used as a weapon against others, what could happen? before we go any further, Bishop Budde, I want to thank you for inspiring me to be brave.

Mariann Budde (09:21)
Right. Right.

Well, thank you for stepping up in that way. frankly, I think that's how bravery works. We are all inspired by somebody or we catch it almost like something that passes between us. that is a huge part of the mystery and the power of courage as human beings experience it.

We're ready in a way that we didn't know we were until the moment comes.

Alexis Rice (10:14)
comes. Wow. That's a perfect segue because, your witness inspired a small act of courage in me. You mentioned that about childhood. And so that's why we have you back on the show, because you have written a new book, I Can Learn to Be Brave.

Mariann Budde (10:18)
you

Thank

Alexis Rice (10:31)
it's illustrated by Holly Hatem, which I am familiar with her work because I have eight and 10 year olds and so I love her illustrations. And I'm so excited about this incredibly beautiful book that is releasing on July 7th. So

Mariann Budde (10:44)
I'm over the moon about this book amazed that it came together the way it did. And to work with Holly was a dream, total dream come true.

Alexis Rice (10:53)
even though that this book is written for children around four to eight years old, I have a feeling that adults need this book just as much. Actually, I really needed it. This conversation is about becoming brave people in those small steps. It's about ordinary people becoming courageous leaders. I would like to talk today as well about how clergy can take brave steps in order to create spaces for people to trust again.

Mariann Budde (11:17)
yeah

Alexis Rice (11:18)
how we learn to love our neighbors when fear and Christian nationalism are telling us not to. And maybe that's the question underneath this whole conversation. I've been thinking about this conversation specifically today and during this first year of the sacred slope, I found myself asking over and over what happened to Christianity. But today I wanna ask a new one. Today I wanna ask what kind of Christianity are we becoming now?

our kids are going to inherit the church that we shape by the courage that we practice now. And there is no better person I'd like to have that conversation with on this than you, Bishop Budde. So welcome to the Sacred Slope.

Mariann Budde (11:55)
Thank you.

Alexis (11:56)
Let's start with I Can Learn to Be Brave. I would love to hear more about what first sparked the idea for this story.

Mariann Budde (12:03)
I was approached by the children's department of my publisher, wondering if this was something I would want to do, and I jumped at it in part because as I wrote the first two books, and as I reflected on my own life, it became clearer and clearer to me that we learn to be brave at a very young age because as children.

nearly every day we have to do something we've never done before. And a lot of us don't remember how challenging, terrifying, exhilarating that was. But if you're in the presence of a young child, even a toddler that's first learning how to crawl or to walk or to eat with a spoon, you can see it on their faces. You can see the amazement that something what that was impossible for them

is now within their grasp. And I love that moment when a child, I saw it this summer with my granddaughter learning how to ride a bicycle. I'm seeing it with my very youngest grandson as he's getting up on all fours. Our oldest, you know, it's just you see these amazing moments of courage. At the same time, there are those thresholds that truly feel

overwhelming and impossible to a child. And when a story or an example, something from our own lives, is a source of encouragement for them, I find that to be one of life's greatest joys. And so that's what I was hoping for with this book. A reminder to children that they already know so much of what it means to be brave. And at the same time to tell a story that would demonstrate

a few basic principles that they and those who are reading to them can carry with them always.

Alexis (14:02)
I love that. as a mom, I've spent a lot of time reading social emotional learning books. volunteered in their classrooms, really focusing on giving kids these tools, To know how to name, you know, fear and bravery, empathy, sadness, courage. do you see that as part of a spiritual formation as well?

Mariann Budde (14:15)
Yeah. Yeah.

absolutely. it is a spiritual reality as well as all the other realities you mentioned, physical, psychosocial, developmental, and spirituality is one of the gifts we have inside us to help us, among other things, face hard things.

So a faith in a loving God, for example, and an assurance that we're not alone, the experience of being in community, watching grown-ups face hard things and experience the emotions that they experience if it's done well, gives children a container in which to process those things among themselves.

religion or spirituality is a container for joy, it's a container for tragedy, and to you said, allow a child to develop over time and in an appropriate way a repertoire of responses, right? And to watch adults do the same thing, even when what they're watching is a mistake or a failure or

an outburst of some kind because the grown-ups around them are human, the spiritual task is also to in some ways contain, normalize what's appropriate, and to name some categories that fall outside of what is safe and appropriate behavior.

Alexis (15:51)
I was wondering if we could give a little sneak peek for our friends watching. is are there a couple pages that you really enjoy and that we could show the beautiful illustrations

Mariann Budde (15:54)
Yeah.

I'd love to.

Well, the narrative, the story is about a girl who wanted to be brave but wasn't brave. And she really tried, she tried and tried and tried. And so the first illustrations are of her watching children do brave things that she can't do. And then she decides to go on a walk and she meets a girl who takes her on an adventure. And everything about the adventure is terrifying. And so I want to show you.

my first favorite, I mean I have so many, but here is a picture where the brave girl is saying, We are going to climb this hill. And the not so brave girl says, That's impossible, I can't do it. And she says, every brave journey begins with the first step. And the first step is always the hardest, but it's also the bravest. And I think that's for me a mantra in life, that it's

almost always hard the first time you try anything, but you take the first step and then you take the next and the next. And as she discovers, before she knew it, she was at the top. So it's the learning journey, right? it's saying to your child and to all of us, go ahead, take the first step as the brave step to take.

Alexis (17:13)
I love it so much. I also really liked the part where they were looking at the water towards the end. And she was like, Well, what if I fall in the water? that was so poignant, I think, to those of us who were raised to be perfectionists by our culture, we get stuck here, like.

Mariann Budde (17:18)
Yes.

Right.

Right. Right.

Right. we can't do it, right? And then the brave girl says, Don't you know you can learn to swing because they're going to swing across the water? And then the not so brave girl asks, Well, how did you learn? And then the brave girl tells her, I learned by falling. Lots and lots of falling to make it like the most natural thing in the world it's going to happen. And lo and behold, you turn the page and it does happen.

Alexis (17:34)
What if this bad thing happens?

Mariann Budde (18:00)
And she realizes, first of all, she bursts out laughing and then she realizes, Well, falling isn't so bad and eventually after some tries, they both make it to the other side. Yeah.

Alexis (18:14)
I love it. I love it. I'd love to kind of transition then about asking about becoming I wonder if we've misunderstood bravery a little bit. we celebrate people standing in history's biggest moments a lot, right? But maybe the real miracle isn't, when people have found courage then, but maybe it's that they quietly became the kind of person who was ready when that moment arrived, like you describe.

Mariann Budde (18:27)
Yeah.

Right.

Alexis (18:39)
how do we become those people in this moment in history?

Mariann Budde (18:44)
it's a very big question because the moment in history that we're in is is a big moment. And if we all had to do the same thing, perhaps it would be excruciatingly difficult. My sense is that every one of us can do something. And whatever that next faithful, brave thing is will occur to us.

Or will be given as a guide to us. And our responsibility is to take the step, right? One faithful step. And so we would overwhelm, we overwhelm ourselves, as you were saying earlier, if we take on everything. But if we do some real careful self-reflection or we pay attention to where we find ourselves, who we're connected to.

what our gifts are and make an offering even if it's scary even if it doesn't feel like it's very significant and follow the thread of where that leads right often it's about forming relationships in fact i think it's always about relationships of one kind or another and particularly relationships that take us outside of our normal or sort of

Alexis (19:52)
Mm.

Mariann Budde (20:06)
natural kind of easy groups of affinity, but where we're risking ourselves to be proximate to people that are in a situation that is different than ours and learn from them and dare to offer ourselves in those spaces.

Because one of the things that we're experiencing now in this particular moment is that we have lost the ability to talk to one another across big chasms of divide. And in fact, we're encouraged to see each other in the worst possible light. And so it's a real act of courage to not give up on what we believe and know to be true, but dare to see the humanity in people who see the world differently or experience the world differently.

Alexis (20:51)
Mm.

Mariann Budde (20:51)
or dare to be in the presence of someone who is emotionally very upset about something and we're not, but we're willing to go into that space with them, or we're willing to sacrifice something our comfort so that others might experience a more gentle moment in life. Whatever it is. I mean, I think

Alexis (21:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mariann Budde (21:11)
the challenge for each one of us is to step out, to trust that the path we're on is a worthy one and a potentially very brave one if we are dare if we dare to hold it in the significance that I believe God holds it for all of us, right?

That in the eyes of God there are no insignificant paths, there are no insignificant people, and that we all have a part to play.

Alexis (21:35)
Mm-hmm.

chills, Bishop Budde I get chills when I talk to you and I love it.

Mariann Budde (21:42)
but

I think it you were talking earlier, I mean your own journey reflects some of that as well in terms of the things that you are stepping into, following a thread, right? Listening to conversations, learning a particular giftedness that you have. That that is the that is the path. That is the path for all of us. And and it's different for all of us, depending on age and circumstance and

How many people we're taken care of at a given moment? I mean, all of those things, right? Sometimes the most courageous thing is to stay exactly where we are, tending to what is in front of us. and sometimes the next brave thing is to step away from some of that and go somewhere else. we just don't know until we listen. And I think, you know, that's for me where spirituality and discerning come in, right?

Alexis (22:16)
Hmm.

Mm.

Mariann Budde (22:31)
To dare to trust that we will be given what we need to find our way.

Alexis (22:41)
Thank you. You know, I really like that. it harkens to me a little bit to an interview I had recently with Sharon McMahon, and she's written a book that's empowering children as well, We Are Mighty, talking about doing the next needed thing. I'm noticing this theme from these powerhouse incredible women who are brave and strong right now writing these books to empower the rest of us to be brave in this moment.

Mariann Budde (22:47)
Yeah.

Love it. Yes.

Alexis (23:06)
ordinary people, not just extraordinary people, If we would really do this, if we would step into some courage, just one small step, if we would all really try to listen to that. as you said I've been really trying to listen to that this year. And

I told you before we started recording, I am more hopeful for our country, for our world, for our faith than I have been in a long time listening to voices like you and others who really have a vision for beauty and relationship and love. I'm very hopeful. but

I do think that a lot of people are in a lot of despair right now. I think there's a lot of apathy.

Mariann Budde (23:39)
Mm-hmm.

Alexis (23:42)
think there's a lot of feeling like my voice doesn't make a difference. Like who cares if I'm brave or not? I just want the really, big, powerful people to be brave. I don't need to be brave. but there's something that's happening here about bravery. And I'm just wondering what could that world look like in a year from now in five years from now if we actually did this? What do you hope it to look like?

Mariann Budde (23:51)
Mm-hmm.

way to frame the essentially the same thing that you're saying is that it's already happening, but it's happening the way you know it's been described. Sometimes when you're moving toward a change, you're taking these small incremental steps and you don't know where you are in the arc of it, right? it doesn't feel like anything because you don't yet have momentum behind you.

Alexis (24:25)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mariann Budde (24:31)
Or the countervailing force is so strong that your effort is kind of washed over by what's coming at you. And those are all very real phenomena in the human story. And we never really know where we are in those arcs. And maybe what Sharon and the others are trying to point out to us, Jonathan I did the same thing when he wrote The King book, to point out to us is that

Every person that we acknowledge is showing up in the moment in a moment of greatness, though every one of those people were ordinary people who were on a trajectory, and they never knew until it happened that they were going to be part of something bigger. that is the experience. And so many, many people will go through life just

Doing the hard thing without really seeing its fruitfulness because they can't in themselves connect the dots. But looking back, can say, my gosh, they were all a part of it. And so we're all a part of something.

Now, what you're saying is that we may be reaching a momentum point, that there's some momentum taking hold, and that we might be blessed to see a kind of spark of something bigger.

so those of us who were in Minneapolis in January saw some of that. Okay, this is what it looks like when tens of thousands of people show up in one place. This is what it looks like when entire communities say no. Now, was it enough to stop you know the immigration policy of this administration? No. But it was enough to say this is what it looks like. If and if we do this on a large enough scale, we can change hearts and minds, right?

I think that's how it's always worked, right? and so to not lose hope, even if it feels despairing, even if it feels like nothing is changing. and in a given day that in fact may be the case. But we can never discount the quiet, faithful efforts that people make and the stories that will be told about them later on.

Because when the whole is seen for the glory that it is.

the people who lived through the 1920s and 30s in terms of our, you know, this of the retrenchment of all civil rights and the rise of Jim Crow and housing segregation and you know, education to all of that, right? I mean, they persevered and persevere. They didn't just sit around and do nothing. We don't know many of their stories because it took decades, right? It took decades. But now we're hearing about them in ways that are just amazing.

So these larger than life people are coming to the stream of our consciousness from those very years. And they were the grandparents of the people whose names we know from the civil rights era. And I suspect something like that is happening now. You know, that there are a lot of seeds being planted, there's a lot of soil being cultivated. And in God's time, in Cairo's time.

We pray that the fruit of it will be known. That's what I'm going for, I tell you. And if I don't live to see it, I'm undoing it for those who are this age now, right? So they can say, you know what? There were a lot of people who were trying to do the right thing when it was easier to be cynical and despairing and afraid. And they were afraid, but they stepped up to the moment anyway. And that's

Alexis (27:36)
Yes.

Mariann Budde (28:01)
to protect as much as they could and save as many people as they could and believe that the best of humanity was still worth dedicating our lives to. That's what I'm hoping.

Alexis (28:18)
can I test a theory with you then? when you talked about bravery and leadership and that quiet work. now that we live in an online world with social media, with new media, podcasting, with Zoom meetings, that we can, you know, have this ability to connect virtually in a way that the planet has never been able to do before.

Mariann Budde (28:25)
Right.

Right.

Alexis (28:38)
I also think ministry has changed forever. many people now meet a pastor online before they ever step into a sanctuary. Many people encounter pastors online and they may never step into a sanctuary again because they've been burned and hurt by churches. I'd like to ask you about this.

Mariann Budde (28:48)
Sure.

Alexis (28:59)
I've been talking to a lot of pastors recently in the in the pastors lab and just around the world. And what I've definitely noticed is we have in the United States, we have evangelical pastors who are very comfortable with being out there and getting online and sharing. but mainline pastors are doing that quiet brave work often. They have explained to me that their value system, by and large.

Mariann Budde (29:18)
Right. Right.

Alexis (29:24)
Is not inherently to speak about it. It is to make sure their neighbors are clothed and fed and that immigrants are safe and that queer people have inclusion and that they are doing this quiet work and that it doesn't feel native to them. They don't want to evangelize in the same way. They feel like that makes them different.

Mariann Budde (29:30)
Right, right.

Yeah.

Alexis (29:45)
there's such a beauty in that, and I'm loving that.

And yet in our online spaces, where the people now are, there's a lot of troubling things online that people are coming across when they're looking for Christian content. And I think about our young people trying to learn to be brave and then getting on social media and looking for Christian content and then a little bit of wellness. And they are very quickly brought into the manosphere. They are very quickly brought into ways.

of misogyny, sins of racism, sins of bigotry, of homophobia. And so my question to you is how can pastors who are nervous to come online and talk about the values that they care about. what encouragement might you have for them?

Mariann Budde (30:29)
it's a big topic, Alexis, and I have been deeply influenced by a pastor in Queens. His name is Rich Villodas I don't if you know him. He's an evangelical pastor with a very thoughtful, broad-minded spirituality. and he often talks about

He can't fix the troubling aspects of technology and social media, and they are troubling. But he can pastor it. He can pastor the spaces. And I think about that sometimes. I think about what does it mean to be a pastor in the spaces of the online world, which of course is changing so fast that it's hard to even know what we're talking about or which platform is best.

Alexis (30:56)
Mm-hmm.

Mariann Budde (31:17)
I am certainly not going to be on the cutting edge of that. You know, I'm too old and I'm too set in ways of communication that are like many of the pastors you described. But like you, I want to learn and listen and be guided by more native tech people who have a sense of how technologies and social platforms can be used for good and to be a resource for them.

And to quietly present an alternative. what you're describing, the kind of to use to use that phrasing, the mainline world, I don't know that we're ever going to have the capacity to meet toe to toe in the online spaces because we just don't have the money and the capacity. we just don't,

But there are people who are showing the way and I love watching and listening to them. And they do it, you know, I I pay attention to those who are closer to my demographic just because that's the spaces I'm in. But I suspect they're in younger ones as well. And so I think maybe our job is to identify who they are and to bring them into spaces where other pastors can learn from them, right? Including me, you know, just how do we do that?

there is a a longing, as you've heard in so many different contexts, for authenticity and relationship and genuine caring, right? And so much of that is how we communicate that in the online spaces feels really important to me, so I would say we can't walk away.

But we also have to learn from those who can be guides for us if we're feeling like we're a bit hesitant or out of our league. Right. And I think you're one of those people. You know, I think you're one that's trying to say to many of us, don't be afraid, be who you are, let us tell your story, right? let others know what you're doing. Speak with love and integrity.

the dignity of everyone and that will be a counterpoint I also don't want to or dismiss every evangelical leader either because it's a broad category right they're not all of a cloth and so who are the people that we might come alongside in common cause spend a lot of time thinking about that as well.

Alexis (33:32)
Yeah, that's a really good point. So I come from the evangelical world, right? That's my upbringing. that's the language I speak. and you're totally right about that, about not painting the evangelical world with one

Mariann Budde (33:36)
Mm-hmm.

Alexis (33:42)
Brush. I would like to ask you in terms of bravery there are many evangelical pastors out there right now, by a different token, who want to take a step of bravery in, for example, becoming open and affirming churches. And they are concerned that they are unable to do that because they will lose a huge swath of their people. They want to affirm female pastors.

Mariann Budde (33:55)
Yep. Yep.

Alexis (34:08)
even though the SBC just recently had a vote to not allow women pastors. This is not something that all evangelical pastors are in line with in step with. and so I understand that that's really difficult. And yet I do have a theory that there are millions and millions of people who are not in church spaces right now in the United States because they just feel like these are deal breakers for me. I cannot go into a church if it's not.

Mariann Budde (34:19)
I know.

Alexis (34:36)
open and affirming to my queer friends or to you know myself if women are not affirmed as leaders for example if it's not an anti-racist church for those pastors do you have any advice on bravery knowing the pastoral world and how challenging that might be

Mariann Budde (34:53)
Well, I can say they're right. They will lose a lot of people. I mean the Episcopal Church lost a lot of people when we ordained women. a lot of people. The Episcopal Church lost a lot of people when we acknowledged and

officially accepted LGBTQ persons in the ordained ministry without hesitation and also on marriage. So if they're worried about that, it's a legitimate worry. These are divisive issues and we're living in an even more divisive time. but the other side is also true, right?

first of all, A, you have to ask yourself, is God asking you to do this right now? is this what's being asked of you? And I'm not assuming that it is for anyone, but I think that's, you know, f the number one question. the second question is, do you have to do it alone? are there ways to do it in partnership with others so that you're not taking these stands and just standing out there like a reed in the wind.

Are there ways to do it incrementally without, that's something I think that I've watched many, particularly in the United Methodist Church, I've watched with deep admiration how some, I mean, obviously some split away, there have been all the splits, but there really have been some churches that grew together in a new way, in a way that allowed for people to not be in the same place on an issue at the same time, even as the congregation itself was taking positions more and more in line.

with the kind of inclusion that you're describing. there are many different paths for that. and there may be some for whom it's too difficult. it's the line they cannot cross. there's also a pretty strong counter movement, as you've said. I there are

those who are arguing that everything that you and I've just described is really antithetical to the gospel of Jesus and that w they need to provide a very strong alternative where the sanctity of same gender relationships, the sanctity of no sexual relationships before marriage, the idea that progressive Christianity is somehow a distortion of Christianity. That's a very powerful theme now.

and I'm listening to it because sometimes the people who really disagree with you hear and see things that you don't realize that you're saying, that you don't mean to say, but that you're saying. for example, there are a lot of women in that world who believe that women like me are elitist and condescending and hateful to them, right? So if that's what they believe, how can I model my how can I stay true to who I am and what I've

leave and communicate something that is not hateful, right? How can I do that? So those are just some of the tensions that we're living with right now. a lot of it comes down to what you think you're called in a given moment to do or say. And how if you're called to lead a community, what is your position in that community?

And I would I would follow my little girl's advice and I would say, you know, take the first step, recognize there's gonna be a lot of failure and ask for help.

Alexis (37:48)
I hear

a lot of themes over this conversation that that I'm really encouraged by really connection with the divine, listening to spirit, listening to that centered, listening if this is your time, and then being in relationship with others, and that feels like the model of our Christian faith. I mean, that really feels like the beauty of what

Mariann Budde (37:55)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Right.

Right.

Alexis (38:11)
I think a lot of people who left church spaces are really grieving and missing right now.

Mariann Budde (38:16)
Yeah, I I agree. And also enough humility to say, you know what, we're not always going to get it right, right? we're gonna be wrong sometimes. or we might be right, but you know that wonderful poem by the Israeli poet Yehuda Amichai who says that you from the places we're right.

Flowers will never grow in the spring. Because we're right, the soil is hard and and and and like stone, right? But where we're willing to be humble and where we have doubts and we're willing to meet one another, then then flowers can bloom. And so to I mean there is a difference. I think it was Adam Hamilton who Yeah, there's a difference between being right and being heard. I'm not saying not to be right where we're persuaded that we're right, but to carry that with some degree of humility.

Alexis (38:36)
Mm-hmm.

Mariann Budde (38:59)
And also some curiosity, okay, if I am, if this is in fact of God, how can I live in such a way that those who do not see that are able to see it because of how I live, that's an issue of cognitive dissonance, right? To say, okay, you know, I believe all women bishops you know.

Pick your pejorative word. But this bishop doesn't seem so evil, right? Or I don't think that gay people ought to be married, but gosh, look at this couple. they're as loving as any couple I've ever seen. You know what I mean? Like that's that's how hearts are changed, right? We need to change laws, but you know, hearts are changed in a different way. I'm not saying that all of us are called to that, but that's what I feel called to, right? That kind of living.

Alexis (39:43)
I love it.

speaking of that, you know, it's been about a year and a half since you've given that very memorable, what do what do we call it? I never know the church words. It was a sermon. Okay. Like all it's so funny. all the different like going to different denominations and there's like synod and all these things that like as a

Mariann Budde (39:57)
What was a sermon? What's a sermon?

Alexis (40:06)
Evangelical person, I'm like, I don't know, you to teach me. I don't know all these words. So I I'm always out of place and I'm brave enough to just stupidly ask all the all the questions I should know. it's been a year and a half since you gave that very brave sermon you know, a lot of times I I ask people, you know, have you heard of this and this pastor? If they're not in church spaces anymore and they don't know, they don't know. But if I say, Hey, did you see Bishop Budde, that breaks through, that broke through to everything.

Mariann Budde (40:13)
Hey.

Alexis (40:35)
everybody who I've really ever encountered in a way that really very little has. you spoke in that moment to ask President Trump for mercy for queer folks and for immigrants who make our country so beautiful. And I'm just wondering if you have a message now, a year and a half in,

to queer folks and to immigrants who are struggling right now.

Mariann Budde (41:04)
first of all, I I grieve so much alongside those who have been adversely impacted by the policies and practices of this administration in the last year and a half. And there's no sugarcoating how devastating that has been. So there is an acknowledgement of that.

and I want to say yet again that you are that you are not alone, that there are so many people who not only love and prize you personally, but as collectives, how much your being part of our country is prized and cherished. And that I have been amazed at the number of people, both in my own

my own geographic area of ministry and around the country that are willing to come alongside, stand up, partner, ally, protect. And I I pray that that is your experience, that you know that you are you are part of our beloved community, even if the people who are passing the laws and implementing the policies don't see that.

I pray this day passes as quickly as possible and we come out on the other side. But in the meantime, we need people to take care and to protect themselves and their one and their loved ones and not to underestimate the power that is coming toward us now, but to be wise and caring.

And brave when we can, but also discreet when we need to be, right? For the sake of safety, which is it's a tough balance, but I I feel that as I would for my own children, wanting them to be safe at a time when there's so much coming toward them.

Alexis (43:12)
Thank you. Bishop Budde, there's a lot of people who are listening right now who haven't been prayed over in a long time. there are people that just need a little bit more encouragement to listen to the Holy Spirit about being brave to stand up and be stone catchers for others.

Mariann Budde (43:23)
Yeah.

Alexis (43:31)
on behalf of others to love our neighbors as ourselves. and who also just need care in this time of great despair, of loneliness. I was wondering if you could pray over them.

Mariann Budde (43:46)
Course, be honored. Just take a moment and

Remind ourselves by the breathing in and out of air through our lungs that the Spirit of God is as close to us all as our own breath.

Gracious and loving God, as we bring this conversation to a close, I offer before you all those who are listening in real time and those who may be listening later.

Ask you for your spirit of protection and kindness to be a palpable presence in their lives.

Pray too, Lord, for each person listening, and especially those who have any reason to doubt it, that they might know in the depths of their being how cherished they are in your sight, how beloved, and that they belong. They belong here.

in the spaces they occupy, in the world that is yours.

And Lord, in those times when each one of us might be called upon to say or do something courageous, sacrificial, loving, that you would give us the grace to do that, to see it, to know it's ours to do and to carry it through.

Help us to find within ourselves the reservoirs of courage that are the gift you endow each one of us with, and to lean on each other.

I ask for the grace, Lord, for each of us when we fail to live up to what we sense is our calling, that you would surround us with your merciful forgiveness and reassurance that there is always room for our struggling humanity.

You would help us pick ourselves up again and keep going and to help one another do the same.

Finally, Lord, I would ask for a vision that we all might carry in our hearts, a vision of what could be your preferred future for each one of us and for our country and this world. Help us to see it, and when we don't see it, to trust that it's still there and order our steps, guide our steps, gracious God, in whatever part of its fulfillment would be pleasing in your sight.

And all this I ask in the name of Jesus.

And in your loving spirit.

Amen

Alexis (46:45)
Amen.

Mariann Budde (46:55)
Thank you.

Alexis (46:56)
Budde, thank you so much for being on the Sacred Slope today. It's been a pleasure to have you back.

Mariann Budde (47:01)
Yeah, likewise keep in touch. I can't wait to hear what the next brave thing that you're going to do, Alexis. You're a true blessing to all of us.

Alexis (47:09)
you're a true blessing to all of us. Thank you so much.

Alexis Rice (47:14)
Alright, how's everybody feeling? I'm really basking in the gift that was this conversation with Bishop Budde. I thought I'd end today by reading a portion from her book for youth, We Can Be Brave,

as some of you know, I grew up in evangelical megachurch culture. There was so much beauty to it. And I still in so many ways identify a lot more with the evangelical way of being in life. I'm doing this podcast. it's not that hard for me to talk about the good news of Jesus.

But there was a lot of harm that was done is continuing to be done it wasn't just one church, it was many churches. it's really essentially a system that told me that if I was going to look at progressive churches or mainline churches that were teaching a different theology than they were teaching, that that was going down a slippery slope.

And that would lead you into all kinds of horrible things like progressivism, like atheism, and eventually communism and whatever hyperbole they want to throw in there. that's still happening today. And it kept me in a system, it kept me not

looking for theology earlier and younger, because even though I had the freedom to do it, there was still this tie in my head. And once I started doing it, once I started going down that slippery slope, I realized that it was sacred ground. I realized that if you want to deconstruct, there are so many pastors and clergy members and faith leaders out there that can help you deconstruct.

They are in the mainline churches. They are Bible scholars. There are Christians out there like me. There's lots of beautiful podcasts. There's lots of beautiful books. You do not have to deconstruct alone. I am walking here with you, but I want you to know that you do not have to fear going down something that you were told was a slippery slope.

so I wanted to finish today with reading a little bit from We Can Be Brave from Bishop Budde because this was something that I really resonated with as I have found my way into the Episcopal tradition. I love all traditions. I love the UCC tradition I spend a lot of time in. I've been in the Presbyterian tradition, I love the United Methodist tradition. I have been going to an Episcopal church, which I love.

I do miss the music of Evangelical Mega Church Spaces, I will say. I think reading this hopefully will give you permission to those of you that feel like maybe this is the next step. Maybe it's looking at

a church this weekend that might be a little bit more aligned with your values, And maybe it's putting that belief on the shelf that you're gonna go down a slippery slope.

Bishop Budde says, in the end, what most prepared me for this decisive moment was the growing tension I felt about the Christian faith. my pastor back in Colorado fretted that I would backslide if I returned to the Episcopal Church of my childhood.

I had no such worries. In fact, I was relieved to be released from a version of Christianity that I had secretly questioned more each day. The truth is, I never doubted the reality or the presence of Jesus in my life. I didn't question the sincerity of the people in my church. They were kind, loving, and dedicated to their Lord. It was the rigidity of their belief system that I struggled with, and their certainty that God's unconditional love was extended only to those who accepted Jesus as their personal savior.

In the precise way they did. There was no room for different experiences or understanding or language to talk about the reality of human sin and brokenness that persisted after being saved. There certainly wasn't room for doubts. I'm not sure I would have resolved that tension had I stayed in Colorado, leaving the church that had nurtured me felt like an act of rebellion.

But I knew I was being faithful to God in a way that I hadn't experienced before. The conflict wasn't lost on me. I felt no need to judge or criticize my church, and yet I knew I didn't fit in their world. I was grateful for what they had given me, but I silently rejected most of what they taught. It was the first time it dawned on me that a relationship with God isn't defined by correct beliefs, but rather

a willingness to trust and step out in faith. Without realizing it, I left Colorado in search of a more expansive understanding of God. As grace would have it, I found what I didn't know I was looking for in the Episcopal Church of my childhood.

Alexis Rice (51:48)
Thank you for joining us today on The Sacred Slope. If you'd like to nominate a pastor, priest, or clergy member anywhere in the world, send me an email at Alexis @ thesacredslope.com. Music was by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin, and Sean Spence. May the fruit of the spirit guide you this week. I'm Alexis Rice. Go in peace, friends.