38. Timothy Schraeder Rodriguez (Non-Denominational Megachurch Culture) - Conversion Therapy Dropout

38. Timothy Schraeder Rodriguez (Non-Denominational Megachurch Culture) - Conversion Therapy Dropout

What if the choice between being gay and being Christian was never a choice at all?

Alexis sits down with Timothy Schrader Rodriguez, author of Conversion Therapy Dropout, for a deeply personal conversation about surviving eight years of conversion therapy, working behind the scenes at some of the most influential evangelical megachurches in America, and discovering that faith and queerness do not have to be enemies.

Tim shares his journey from growing up in evangelical megachurch culture to entering conversion therapy in pursuit of what he believed God required of him. Together, Alexis and Tim explore the devastating impact of spiritual abuse, the false binary many LGBTQ+ Christians are taught, and the healing that becomes possible when people are fully seen, loved, and affirmed.

They discuss the rise of Christian nationalism, the continued attacks on LGBTQ+ rights, and why visibility, honesty, and relationships remain some of the most powerful tools for change.

Tim also shares the story behind Church Clarity, the organization he helped launch to help people find churches that are honest about where they stand on LGBTQ+ inclusion and women in leadership.

The conversation closes with a powerful benediction for anyone who has ever wondered whether they belong, whether God could love them as they are, or whether faith is still possible after spiritual harm.

This conversation is for anyone exploring:
progressive Christianity, LGBTQ+ Christianity, queer theology, deconstruction, church hurt, conversion therapy, Christian nationalism, faith after evangelicalism, and healing from spiritual abuse.

💡 Key Takeaways

• Conversion therapy is harmful and does not work
• Being gay and Christian is not a contradiction
• Many LGBTQ+ people leave faith because of rejection, not because they stop seeking God
• Relationships and stories change hearts more effectively than arguments
• Churches should be clear about where they stand on LGBTQ+ inclusion and women in leadership
• Healing is not becoming someone else - it's returning to who you've always been

About Our Guest

Timothy Schrader Rodriguez (@timothy.s.rodriguez) is an author, speaker, church communications strategist, LGBTQ+ advocate, and one of the founders of Church Clarity. His memoir, Conversion Therapy Dropout, chronicles his experience surviving eight years of conversion therapy and finding a path toward healing, authenticity, and faith.

📚 Resources & Voices Mentioned

• Jonathan Van Ness @jvn
• Getting Better with JVN: @gettingbetterwithJVN
• NBC News interview featuring Timothy Schrader Rodriguez: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DYDZuzrsZ8L/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
• Church Clarity @churchclarity
• Q Christian Fellowship @qchristianorg https://www.qchristian.org/
• Rev. Brandan Robertson @brandanrobertson
• Matthew Vines @matthewvines
• Justin Telthorst @emptycharishome
• Rev. Dr. Ginny Brown Daniel https://ginnybrowndaniel.substack.com/
• Brené Brown @brenebrown

🏳️‍🌈 Looking for a church?

Visit ChurchClarity.org

Is there a church near you that is clear about how they welcome and affirm LGBTQ+ people? Are queer people allowed in leadership? Will the church perform same-sex weddings? Do they affirm women in leadership? Enter your ZIP code and see what's around you.

As Tim channels @BrenéBrown in this episode: "Clarity is kindness. Ambiguity can be harmful."

Grab Conversion Therapy Dropout (I love Tim reading the audiobook!) Grab a copy https://bookshop.org/shop/thesacredslope

If this episode resonates with you, consider sharing it with someone navigating questions around faith, sexuality, belonging, or healing from church hurt.

Transcript

Tim (00:00)
always been told there were only two choices. Be gay or be Christian. But maybe that was a lie. Maybe there was another way I hadn't seen yet.

Alexis Rice (00:10)
So tell me what this means to you growing up with what we know is now a false binary, but a lot of people still really believe that. and how you've evolved in your faith to know that you can be gay and Christian.

Tim (00:22)
Yeah. So obviously growing up, I was told that being gay was wrong, that it was a sin, that it would separate me from God. That's what pushed me into conversion therapy in the first place. And that's one thing important to highlight is that there was no adult that coerced me into conversion therapy. My parents did not force me into it. Pastor didn't. I willingly opted into it because it was presented to me as the only option for someone.

who is gay but wanted to maintain a relationship with God was that you have to change who you are, like deny yourself, all of those things that we like to say in church sometimes. And I felt had no other choice. And when that didn't work, when conversion therapy after eight years failed to deliver on the promise, I had to question whether or not this was about something wrong with me, something wrong with God or something wrong with the program as a whole.

And that's about the point in most people's journey where they are just like, okay, cool. Yeah, I'm not, I'm good. Like it's devastating when you go through something like conversion therapy that is very spiritually focused and spiritually grounded. And when that change doesn't happen, you're often trained to kind of view that as like divine rejection. So like, if I did all of this for God and God did not change me, then you know, I'm done with God then.

And so a lot of folks walk away from their faith at that point. I was very fortunate in that I had some friends who I had met in conversion therapy that found their way to Q Christian fellowship, which is an amazing organization that supports LGBTQ Christians and said, no, you're going to come with me to this conference. And so this particular part of the book is like right as I'm leaving to go to my first QCF conference. And it was an eye-opening experience for me to

be in a room with other LGBTQ Christians to have people open the Bible and read all of the clobber passages and say, actually, no, this is what that means. This is what that meant. This is completely out of context. And it was this earth-shattering moment for me to be like, wait, I don't have to pick between the two. I can be gay and Christian. And it was like the wool had been ripped off my eyes. It was just like, It was mind-blowing.

it was scary because I was so ingrained for so long to believe that like being gay was evil that God would reject me. But then to be in this space that was reading the exact same Bible that I had been, well not this, this is not the Bible, is my book, but I'd been reading the exact same Bible that I had to say, you're going to hell. To be like, no, actually, when it says you're fearfully and wonderfully made, that means you It changed my life.

Alexis Rice (02:55)
Ha ha ha

Welcome back to the Sacred Slope Friends, where the slippery slope meets sacred ground. I'm Alexis Rice, and today my guest is Timothy Schrader Rodriguez. Hi, Tim.

Tim (10:33)
Hey, thanks so much for having me.

Alexis Rice (10:35)
Thank you so much for being here. You know, I've really been looking forward to this one ever since I saw you because your story hit something really personal for me. We were formed in really similar worlds during really similar time periods. We're both 1982 kids. We both grew up in evangelical megachurch culture in the United States with all its beauty and all its pains. and we both genuinely loved so much of it.

Tim (10:52)
Dear.

Hahaha

Alexis Rice (11:02)
⁓ worship music from Hillsong is basically the soundtrack in our heads at this point. we also had really strict rules. though thankfully I was allowed Britney and Whitney, which I was devastated to hear that you weren't, I was so sad for you. I think that we both slowly started realizing around similar times that there were things just happening underneath the language of

Tim (11:05)
Yes.

Hahaha

terrible. ⁓

Alexis Rice (11:25)
Love and all are welcome that were really hurting people very deeply in the spaces that we were in. so I'd love to tell people more about you. Tim is the author of the new book, Conversion Therapy Dropout, a new memoir about surviving eight years of conversion therapy while working behind the scenes at some of the most influential evangelical mega churches in the world, including Hillsong, Willow Creek, and Elevation Church.

He's also one of the founders of something that I mention all the time on this podcast, which is church clarity, which helps people figure out whether churches are actually affirming or just very good at sounding affirming by not really mentioning it. if you want a church that is open and affirming, that's typically going to be more progressive. if you want a woman in leadership or someone that affirms women in leadership, like go to church clarity. So thank you.

Tim's work and story has been featured by NBC News, Vice Newsweek, Religion News Service, The Washington Post, The Advocate. And he recently joined Jonathan Van Ness's podcast, Getting Better, to talk publicly about surviving conversion

Tim (12:15)
Thank you.

Alexis Rice (14:32)
He's also been featured in Oprah Daily. I think this is one of those books that people need to read.

Whether you're gay or straight, Christian or not, conservative or progressive, I think that we owe it to people in our lives who we love to better understand the inner turmoil that you so vulnerably describe in this book of what it feels like to realize you're gay inside current evangelical mega church culture. This book helps explain what it actually feels like from the inside when someone is taught that love from God is conditional.

I think this is why so many LGBTQ++ people and allies eventually walked away from certain church spaces altogether and why phrases like we love everyone can land really differently depending on what comes after the word. But I also think a lot of straight Christians genuinely do not understand how psychologically intense these environments can be, especially for queer kids trying desperately to stay close to God at the same time.

And hearing these really painful messages. there are still teenagers in churches right now, young people right now praying for God to change them when they know that there is something different about them, that they are gay or that they are trans and still.

A lot of pastors are afraid or refuse to speak clearly, but there are also millions of Christians trying to build something healthier in the world that's more honest, loving, and like Jesus. So Timothy Schrader Rodriguez, welcome to the Sacred Slope.

Tim (15:59)
Thank you so much for having me. So glad to be here.

Alexis Rice (16:01)
instead of starting off with the trauma, because I know that that's where a lot of people want to start.

I'd love to read this section it captures why church clarity matters so much. what you say in your book is

This time he wanted to connect me with George McHale, the executive pastor of East Lake Church in Seattle, which had recently become a firming of LGBTQ+ people. George was passionate about helping other churches navigate that same journey. And Rob thought we might have some interesting conversations. When George and I connected over Zoom a few days later, his energy was infectious. He laid out a vision for building a database to help LGBTQ+ people find affirming churches.

But this wouldn't be just another affirming church directory. He wanted to hold churches accountable by rating them based on how clearly they communicated their positions on inclusion, same sex marriage, and leadership opportunities for queer people. The problem isn't just finding affirming churches, George said passionately. Too many hide behind vague language like all or welcome while privately maintaining policies that exclude and harm LGBTQ+ people. His church had heard countless stories of.

Queer Christians burned by churches that seemed progressive on the surface, but truly weren't gay affirming. He specifically mentioned Judah Smith's church in Seattle, which projected an image of radical inclusion, but stopped short of affirming LGBTQ+ relationships. George introduced me to Kai Ngu. a journalist and theologian who would help develop a methodology to score churches. The three of us formed an unlikely team.

A straight pastor with a vision for change, a non-binary queer reporter and preacher, and an ex ex-gay church marketer. For years I'd spent my career teaching churches how to communicate strategically, helping them craft warm and welcoming messages without saying too much. Now I'd be using that exact expertise to pull back the curtain and expose the truths many of them worked so hard to conceal. As Brené Brown famously said, clear is kind, unclear is unkind.

we decided a church's website should serve as its digital statement of belief. If a church truly welcomed LGBTQ+ people, they should say so clearly. If it didn't affirm same sex marriage or queer leadership, they should own it publicly. No more vague, welcome home or all or welcome nonsense. We

Quickly discovered how frustrating the process could be. Many churches intentionally buried their positions in obscure places, student ministry handbooks, wedding policies, leadership applications. Others were intentionally vague, avoiding clarity so they wouldn't alienate either conservative or progressive newcomers. Kai's journalistic background was invaluable as we developed ways to uncover these hidden stances. Ironically, Westboro Baptist Church, infamous for its God hates fags sign,

Scored well for clarity. Its stance was horrific, but at least it was honest. Meanwhile, seemingly progressive megachurches like Judah Smith's received unclear ratings for their strategic ambiguity. We're not asking churches to change their theology, George said in one of our Zoom calls. We're just asking them to be honest about it. Clarity is reasonable, ambiguity is harmful. All right, so I'd love to hear a little bit more about now, the now time.

Tim (19:13)
Yeah.

Alexis Rice (19:13)
What have

Tim (19:13)
Yeah.

Alexis Rice (19:14)
you learned by talking to pastors and people all over the world? What do you envision and what's been coming of this project?

Tim (19:23)
Yeah, interesting that you bring all that up. Church Clarity, I helped launch it. And then you read about the book. I eventually kind of took a step away from it. I needed to kind of disconnect from church stuff for a while for my own soul. But in the last year, we've actually re-engaged. A new board has formed and we are ramping Church Clarity back up, which we're really excited about because there are a lot of churches that have become affirming that want to let people know that they're affirming today.

Alexis Rice (19:34)
Yeah, totally.

Tim (19:52)
And there are more more queer people who are looking to find church homes and spiritual communities to belong to, which is beautiful. And we're in a very different world today than we were when we launched Church Clarity. think what's happened specifically in America, all of the different, I don't want to say it out loud, but like just the whole Christian nationalist thing, I think in a lot of ways has emboldened a lot of churches that may have been on the fence before to become more clear about.

what they really think about LGBTQ people, which in some ways might feel like a step backwards. But I think in terms of what we're trying to do at Church Clarity, it's actually like, okay, you this is good because we're able to help navigate queer people away from those places and away from those communities. think the one thing that has not changed though is the fact that LGBTQ+ people have spirituality as a part of their lives and they want to figure out how it can fit into their lives.

in a church community that fully accepts and affirms and sees them. And there's been some research that's come out recently by Pew to talk about the number of LGBTQ+ people who have left their faith communities after coming out. And so my hope and my prayer is that by us kind of revamping church clarity and getting more churches accessible to queer folks, that we can close that gap and hopefully see more queer people engaging with faith.

Alexis Rice (21:10)
thank you so much for giving gift. was just talking to Reverend Dr. Caleb J. Lines. he's open and affirming his church. I was asking just along the lines of like, hey, for people who just want to go to churches with more progressive theology than conservative theology, because let's be real, every church has a bias.

Like, you how we were raised in this church that it's like, we're apolitical and like we don't have a bias. It's like, no, every church has really strong biases on what they are teaching and their interpretations of the Bible. Right. that was also kind of a what's a different word for mindfuck? it's ⁓ all right, I might have to put explicit on this one. ⁓ you know, because it was

Tim (21:27)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah.

think that's the perfect word.

Alexis Rice (21:53)
we're like centered, we're like the truth. Here's these political churches out there, here's those progressive churches out there, and we're like, apolitical in the middle. And it's like, no, like you gave us a really strict theology and interpretation of the Bible. And it was so strict we deviated on any of it, you told us we were going down a slippery slope, right? How was that for you?

Tim (21:58)
Yeah.

Mm-mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, no, Yeah.

It was tough. mean, as soon as I came out, as soon as I quit conversion therapy, I wanted to find a church where all of me could belong. And I did go to a very progressive church that had a rainbow flag on the outside and thought, my gosh, like I will feel right at home here. And I did not, just because it was such a far departure from the churches that we grew up in.

And I just, it took me a while to even feel comfortable there. And like my sexuality, like I felt accepted, but I think the theology of it, I was just still in the process of deconstructing and deprogramming from the world that I had lived in, that being in that space just felt way too extreme. And so it was kind of a gradual path for me to finally navigate towards more affirming churches. I was talking with some leaders,

Alexis Rice (22:56)
Mm.

Tim (23:04)
of the PC USA and they're like, well, we've always been affirming. And I'm like, that's true. And that's wonderful. And like, I'm so grateful for you. And I'm grateful that you've done that. But you also have to understand there's people like me who would automatically see the rainbow flag on the church and just by our old way of programming, be like, no, not safe, can't go there. And so I think there is some work incumbent on those churches to say like, how can we help folks that are

deconstructing or healing from conversion therapy or healing from harmful theology to kind of understand where we're coming from and help them transition kind of into this new way of looking at the Bible or interpreting scripture. And so for me, it took a little bit of time the lens of what I thought was possible and to widen the lens of how I read the Bible and not taking it literally, but like looking at it through the culture and context and all those things that we learned to do.

as we deconstruct. And I think that a lot of progressive churches think that just by existing, they're doing enough. But I think that there's work to be done to help people who are just starting to navigate their way there to know this is how to start. This is where we where you can go. This is how we can help you.

Alexis Rice (24:14)
Yes. Okay. This is so interesting you brought this up. I've been invited to go to a UCC conference to talk to pastoring expangelicals.

Tim (24:20)
Yeah.

Mmm... Yeah.

Alexis Rice (24:23)
Because of exactly what you said. Because when

you talk to a lot of the progressive churches, they don't know the triggers and the traumas that have come from being in these evangelical spaces. I've even talked to my spiritual director who's episcopal about seeing the flag outside and just thinking danger, danger. It's crazy, isn't it? like it lives in our bodies still.

Tim (24:31)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's so

yeah. and like, I mean, that church that I mentioned, they were singing Hill song in worship, so there was something that kind of felt familiar, but we were singing the song, Mighty to Save, and they interchanged the pronoun, Savior, she can move a mountain. And I just remember, I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, what? and I mean, obviously, like, I don't have that reaction today. I've like, we're good there.

But at the time it was so jarring and so uncomfortable for me just because I was just even trying to figure out how to be okay with being gay. And there was just so many other things that like I hadn't even thought of yet and that was one of them. so there were just all these like roadblocks on the way for me to fully like feeling at home.

Alexis Rice (25:28)
I just spoke with Meredith Miller, who has written Wonder, a beautiful book, for kids, because I've been wondering how to raise my kids now because it's very hard when we were raised how we were, and then knowing what kind of a healthier version of faith, because we just like weren't taught that.

Tim (25:37)
Yeah. Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Alexis Rice (25:44)
And she uses they them pronouns for God in her book for kids. And she's just like, Yeah, that's just what we do. And and I love it. But also like it lives in your body, going like, Is this allowed? Are we allowed to do this? Like, is this okay? You know, right?

Tim (25:48)
Love that. Yeah. Yeah, Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

get that. And she and I worked together at Willow Creek. Fun fact. Yeah. collide. Yeah.

Alexis Rice (26:03)
No way. Okay, this is that's amazing. incredible.

in terms of these progressive pastors who don't really know about experiences that you've had in conversion therapy, what advice do you have for

Tim (26:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, of us are just victim to the bubble that we live in. you know, like we, who we surround ourselves with or the world that we inhabit just frames how we see everything. And think a lot of those church leaders have existed in this beautiful, affirming.

space for so long that they forget what it's like on the outside and what it's like to come out of high control of religion. Some of them have never experienced that in their lives maybe. And so I think listening to people's stories, which God bless, I mean, they're so lucky. but I would say like, just listen to people's I've sat and heard other people's experiences, I've been able to hear my own.

Alexis Rice (26:48)
I know.

Tim (26:58)
experiences reflected back, or I've been able to identify with different feelings or different emotions. And so I would say, look for folks that are out there who are early in their deconstruction journey and like read their books, listen to their podcasts, have one-on-one conversations with them, get to know them. think that they'll just help illuminate so much of some of the blind spots they may not realize or even there, because they are like doing loving and beautifully inclusive work. But at the same point.

There is that need for folks that have not existed in that world to know that it's okay to be a part of this and that it's okay to look at the Bible this way, to call God they, to do all of those things that we had to kind of learn to do. And so I would really encourage them to listen to folks' stories who've come out of those spaces and them help you identify the gaps where your church might be able to help create a more wider open door for people.

to find their way home.

Alexis Rice (27:53)
⁓ I'd love to have you read a little bit about what it was like for you growing up evangelical. And I I'd like to preface American evangelical. Evangelicalism means such different things, for example, in Europe than it does in the United States.

Tim (27:53)
totally.

Yeah.

always been told there were only two choices. Be gay or be Christian. But maybe that was a lie. Maybe there was another way I hadn't seen yet.

Alexis Rice (28:19)
So tell me what this means to you growing up with what we know is now a false binary, but a lot of people still really believe that. and how you've evolved in your faith to know that you can be gay and Christian.

Tim (28:31)
Yeah. So obviously growing up, I was told that being gay was wrong, that it was a sin, that it would separate me from God. That's what pushed me into conversion therapy in the first place. And that's one thing important to highlight is that there was no adult that coerced me into conversion therapy. My parents did not force me into it. Pastor didn't. I willingly opted into it because it was presented to me as the only option for someone.

who is gay but wanted to maintain a relationship with God was that you have to change who you are, like deny yourself, all of those things that we like to say in church sometimes. And I felt had no other choice. And when that didn't work, when conversion therapy after eight years failed to deliver on the promise, I had to question whether or not this was about something wrong with me, something wrong with God or something wrong with the program as a whole.

And that's about the point in most people's journey where they are just like, okay, cool. Yeah, I'm not, I'm good. Like it's devastating when you go through something like conversion therapy that is very spiritually focused and spiritually grounded. And when that change doesn't happen, you're often trained to kind of view that as like divine rejection. So like, if I did all of this for God and God did not change me, then you know, I'm done with God then.

And so a lot of folks walk away from their faith at that point. I was very fortunate in that I had some friends who I had met in conversion therapy that found their way to Q Christian fellowship, which is an amazing organization that supports LGBTQ Christians and said, no, you're going to come with me to this conference. And so this particular part of the book is like right as I'm leaving to go to my first QCF conference. And it was an eye-opening experience for me to

be in a room with other LGBTQ Christians to have people open the Bible and read all of the clobber passages and say, actually, no, this is what that means. This is what that meant. This is completely out of context. And it was this earth-shattering moment for me to be like, wait, I don't have to pick between the two. I can be gay and Christian. And it was like the wool had been ripped off my eyes. It was just like, It was mind-blowing.

it was scary because I was so ingrained for so long to believe that like being gay was evil that God would reject me. But then to be in this space that was reading the exact same Bible that I had been, well not this, this is not the Bible, is my book, but I'd been reading the exact same Bible that I had to say, you're going to hell. To be like, no, actually, when it says you're fearfully and wonderfully made, that means you It changed my

Alexis Rice (31:05)
Ha ha ha

let's talk about conversion

So I'd like people to get a little bit of a glimpse of what it is

you were in conversion therapy, did you genuinely believe that God might reject you forever if you didn't change?

Tim (32:31)
absolutely. Yeah, like there was no question about that. Well, the thing about it was that there also wasn't any other option. I mean, in the sense that went to conversion therapy because you believed that homosexuality was a sin and that you believed that God had the power to set you free from it.

Exodus International, which was the largest conversion therapy organization. logo literally said, freedom is possible. And so there was no other option. There was no plan B. was like, this is the way that you have to follow if you want to have a relationship with God and not go to hell.

Alexis Rice (33:06)
been very curious because after you written the book, been a story in the news about a certain someone that you were literally writing about, who's been

Tim (33:10)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So for listeners that don't know that story, Alan Chambers was the president of Exodus International, which was the largest conversion therapy organization, had a network of over 200 ministries around the globe that performed conversion therapy practices.

was responsible for shutting down Exodus in 2013 and made a very public statement and apology admitting that conversion therapy doesn't work, that it had 99 % success rate, and that number was just kind of dramatic. Like it was like it doesn't work. you know, and most people and, you know, by his own volition and the words of lot of other people, like anyone who had

changed was really just repressing themselves and saying like, I know that this is not going to change, but I'm just going to choose to live my life in a particular way. And so, Alan was arrested about a week ago for solicitation of a minor. And that hit me.

harder than I would have anticipated. I had been recording a podcast and went to my phone and had already like more than a dozen text messages from friends saying like, did you see, did you see? And reading the news, I was just like, it was amazing how much it brought up just because he was this figurehead. He was this person that we all looked up to. I mean, he was the face of the movement that

I gave eight years of my life to. he was someone I trusted. He was someone that I looked up to, someone that I admired. Obviously that was a complicated thing in the end because of what conversion therapy did to all of us. But obviously I'm like devastated for, you know, any of the people that have been impacted by his actions, anyone harmed by him.

I think of his wife and his kids who, you know, were such a huge part of his testimony at these Exodus conferences and what they must be going through. in hearing the news, the first thing that came to mind was like, this is what happens when you repress yourself. This is what happens when you deny these things. is what happens. all of that stuff's going to eventually find a way out, it's so unfortunate and so sad.

and devastating, like I don't even know that I don't have the right words for it. I'm still kind of like processing it. but think again, that's the harm of conversion therapy. That is what devastating.

Alexis Rice (35:31)
Yeah. I partly ask you that because, since conversion therapy is now allowed since the ban was overturned. and since there are more and more evangelical churches getting louder and louder about you cannot be gay and Christian. there are messages that parents are hearing that say, like, well, my kid can't be gay, but there are kids that are gonna keep coming

Tim (35:42)
Mm-hmm.

Alexis Rice (35:52)
what advice do you have for these parents who are in evangelical church spaces, who want to do the right thing, who wanna follow God and are hearing these things, and are considering conversion therapy because they've been well, this could be something that could help your family.

Tim (35:55)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

first of all, just, you know, on the whole point of conversion therapy, yeah, it's back in the news. And the Supreme Court overturned a ban in

a quick thing to note in that is all of the bans that are in place, there's bans in about 20 states now.

only prohibit conversion therapy from happening in therapeutic settings, like with a mental health counselor. And so Colorado, there was a case of a Christian psychotherapist who felt it was an infringement on her religious freedom and free speech to be able to suggest conversion practices in a therapeutic setting. The Supreme Court sided with her. And so, it was, made legal again in Colorado, but just recently,

The Colorado House has passed a bill to kind of protect a little bit to say that a therapist cannot project their own point of view. And so there is some protection there. They've also opened the statute of limitations for people who've experienced conversion therapy to seek out recourse if they want to, which is a great way to combat conversion therapy. but to what I would say to parents

that just look at the data, look at the stories. almost every single one of the leaders of the ministries that I was involved in has come out and said it is harmful and it does not work. And even with Exodus shutting down, there were a lot of ministries under the umbrella of Exodus that did not agree with that decision. And so it just continued to kind of grow and fester underground in

predominantly religious spaces. And the largest group today that's out there would be very, very quick to distance themselves from conversion therapy. Say, we're not doing that, that doesn't work. We're all about having a relationship with Jesus that, you know, this gay identity is the result of trauma. And so if you look at these traumas that you fix those and identity does not fix that, Jesus does. And so saying like, reject the identity, reject who you are, reject who God created you to be.

And so a lot of the language of conversion therapy today looks very, different than when I was in it. And so it's largely in churches. It's largely in Christian therapeutic settings. And it's ultimately going to say that who you are has to change in order to be acceptable to God, or that you have to diminish your sexuality in order to embrace the goodness that God has for you. All of those things cause grave harm to people who have to live with the ramifications of that message.

rates among LGBTQ+ youth who have gone through conversion therapy are twice as high than their peers. There's long-term substance abuse and addiction, which is something that I dealt with coming out of conversion therapy. There's a long other list of things that happen, but ultimately it creates a spiritual sever, which I think is the most dangerous. And so if you're a Christian parent who has a child that's saying that they're struggling with their sexuality,

Sending them to conversion therapy is going to tell them that God did not make them right and that they are broken. And when conversion therapy doesn't work because it doesn't, and then they start to try to figure out what to do now, they're gonna think that God's rejected them, that there's something fatally wrong with them. And that's what starts the snowball effect of what happens after conversion damage of conversion therapy largely happens after people leave it. It's the long-term shame and trauma.

the spiritual abuse that they encounter that puts them in a space, one, that they don't want to set foot in a church ever again, and two, that they don't want to go back to a therapeutic space because that safe space has been violated for them. they're neglecting getting the real help that they need. And so to any parents that are out there, I would say go buy Brandan Robertson's book, go buy Matthew Vine's book, go read stories from queer people who have really wrestled with scripture.

and listen to stories of survivors who have experienced conversion therapy but have still maintained their faith in God to see that there is a way to be gay and Christian. And don't put your kids through that. It's harmful. It's child abuse. It's spiritual abuse. It's all kinds of abuse. think using the word therapy to describe it is not accurate. It's abuse.

Alexis Rice (43:08)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

It's absolutely abuse. I am also gonna add, I really, really recommend reading your book. it to me has been such an insight. you held our hand and you walked us through your world in a way that like I don't know that we deserve to understand how deep your pain went. And really understand so deeply.

Tim (43:24)
Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Alexis Rice (43:42)
when people feel like they can't have a Christian faith, they can't have any connection with the divine. And I don't blame them. I blame the harm that was done to you, to these poor people and the fact that that you keep showing up, that you kept showing up. I just really believe that you're a leader in this moment ⁓ to help us change and imagine new and different ways of

Tim (43:58)
Thank you.

Alexis Rice (44:05)
Helping Christians understand that gay people, trans people are fearfully and

made, loved by God as you are.

Tim (44:11)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.

Alexis Rice (44:15)
pride is this month. this seems like a really different pride this year, pride is such a time of joy.

it's a time to be able to fully celebrate who you are, churches there as well with a lot of support. There just seems to be this in some way like utopia of what I hope that the church will eventually be. I imagine that a lot of queer people are more afraid.

This year. I want to ask how that feels to you and people in your community this year. And for those of us who are allies, how we can be better allies this year for you at Pride.

Tim (44:38)
Mm-hmm.

Mm? Mm?

Hmm.

Hmm. Thank is a weird year. obviously just so much happening in our world and attacks against the LGBTQ+ community from every side.

And I would also say I'm really thinking of the trans and non-binary community who are just under vicious assault right now on a lot of different fronts. I think a lot of people when they think of Pride, they think of the parades and they think of all the fun and yes, it is that. But Pride was originally a protest. I mean, it started when trans and non-binary people of color finally decided to say enough was enough at Stonewall in 1969. And it was...

originally a riot and it was for the queer community to stand up for itself. And I think that, the L, the G and the B's of our community need to stand up for the T's this year and really raise our voice for our siblings and, realize that, you know, what happens to one part of our community impacts all of us. And Pride to Me is really about

visibility and it's about saying like we do exist and we are here I think that for any person of the LGBTQ community it's just a moment to say like this is our time to say hey we're here we're not going away you might try to take away our rights you might be trying to come against us but like we're not going anywhere and so it does feel different this year in the sense that

I would say, you know, a few years ago, was more celebratory. We had a lot of good things going. was great space to be, and it's been a little bit more difficult in the last couple of years. but that's the time for us to show up for ourselves and for one another and to let our stories and our voices be heard. And for the allies that are out there, I think just knowing that we have your love and your support. I have so many.

friends who are straight, who will message me during Pride Month and be like, hey, proud of you, love you, I see what you're doing, I've got your back. one of them like Venmoed me $5 to get a mocktail. little simple gestures like that of showing up. I think also realizing that it's not just about putting a rainbow logo on something or being in a parade, but actually showing up in the ways and spaces that make an impact. in the voting booth,

marches and demonstrations to stand up for things. And if your church is not an affirming church or if your church is on the fence and trying to decide, like, no, hey, actually, get this right. We need to get this clear. I think those are some of the most meaningful ways you can show up. just letting the queer people in your life know that you're with them, that you're for them, and taking meaningful action, whatever that looks like and whatever is within your bandwidth to do.

it's about visibility. I think it's about standing up and letting your voice be heard and showing up in the spaces that matter, not just the parties and not just the parades, is what's really important right now.

Alexis Rice (47:32)
We will take that to heart. Thank you.

something that's been bothering me a lot lately, and I wanted to ask you about it, is the oppression of people in the LGBTQ+ community, especially in the United States right now, is coming from our people. Our people, I mean Christians, ⁓ who were taught like we were.

That homosexuality is a sin. ⁓ this is where it's coming from. I've been thinking about like what is working, what is effective at changing minds and hearts. we have painted binaries. the media is also painted binaries. We've got this MAGA evangelical Christian over here who's super homophobic. They won't think that, but like they, you know, they're they think they're on fire for God, right? And then you have this like,

Tim (48:11)
you

Alexis Rice (48:22)
liberal atheists with like pride flags all over and there's not this in between, which is like I think most of the United States and most of the world is in between those two things. I see that people are talking past each other and I don't think it's working, So I really believe that one of the keys to lasting change are people who are Christian and queer and people who are allies and Christians

Tim (48:28)
Mm-mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Alexis Rice (48:47)
What do you think is effective?

Tim (48:49)
Yeah, great question. it goes both ways, right? Like I think in the Christian community, they see the go-go dancers on a pride parade float and like all of the extremes, just as much as in the gay community, we see the God hates fags people. we do see the polarized ends of each other. And it's not great because...

It just creates this like us versus them thing. And I think ultimately what brings about the most effective and lasting change is knowing and having a relationship with people who look and think and live differently than you do. And I think for me, it's been the relationships with people who have surprised

example I'll give is when I was really like deep in the church world, but coming out and discovering who I was as a gay man, I was still like working the church circuit. I was speaking at Christian conferences and I was speaking at a church media conference that was hosted by a friend of mine who used to work for Mark Driscoll at Mars Hill.

that name might ring a bell to some of you, very clear how someone like Mark Driscoll would feel about someone like me. So by proxy, I had to assume that the guy that used to work for him would feel the same way. But got to know each other, I was speaking for him at his conferences. And when I came out publicly, he was one of the people that messaged me and said like, hey, like, I don't agree with you, but I love you. And

Alexis Rice (49:59)
Mm-hmm.

Tim (50:24)
I won't debate all of that right now, but you know, he was just like, I love you as a person and you know, I don't agree with that, but we'll agree to disagree. like, whatever, that's fine. a few months later, spoke at one of the conferences he hosted. And then a little bit later, were having dinner in a different city. And he mentioned to me that he had been offered a book deal by a really conservative Christian publishing house.

to kind of put together like all the different stories from the conferences that he and I were speaking at to like help church leaders with marketing. And he was telling me about it and I was getting so excited for him. I'm that's great. That's so cool. He's like, yeah, well, I turned it down. And I was like, why? And he's like, well, you we were going through who all of the people would be that would be involved in writing the book. And like, your name came up and then they came back to me and said, well, we'd like to have everybody but Tim.

because we know that he's gay and we don't agree with that, blah, blah, blah, blah. So he was like, you know, they were telling me that if they were to publish my book that you couldn't be a part of it. And I said, well, if he's not in it, then the book is not happening because this would not exist without him. And, you know, today he and I aren't as close as we used to be. He's definitely like in the MAGA camp. But there was that moment of

shared understanding and shared humanity. And I have to believe that our relationship and our friendship is what caused him to say no to that book deal. And that cost him something. again, I haven't talked to him in a while, so I don't know, I would probably think his theology has not changed. But to me, that's the power of like, when you have a relationship with someone, and when you really get to know someone and get to know their

happens, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, but it'll happen. But it takes having a relationship with people and knowing someone's story. And it's really easy to look at data and look at numbers or to hear abstract things about different people and different people groups. But when you actually get to know and have relationship with people, it's no longer that community. It's my friend Tim, you know, it's my friend Alexis. And that just...

Alexis Rice (52:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yeah.

Tim (52:37)
changes how you start to view things. And it might not change things at the cellular level that you're gonna instantly change your theology, but it's gonna change how you see the world and change how you approach things. And that's what's challenged me in my life in different areas in different ways. And I've seen that happen in some different ways in my own life, like this story that I just shared.

Alexis Rice (52:57)
Mm. man, thank you. that's very impactful. And you're right, people change through relationships and through story and experiences with one another.

once I got out of the American evangelical bubble and was exploring I realized that there's

Plenty of people all around the world who are queer affirming and Christian. I recently interviewed Bishop Guðrún of Iceland. She's the head bishop of Iceland who works with, by the way, an all-female government. So the president, prime minister, mayor of Reykjavik, all women. and she is a staunch queer advocate, wears pride flags ministers wear, pride flags, not just during Pride

Tim (53:23)
Love.

Alexis Rice (53:33)
the Church of Norway, the head bishop of the Church of Norway has delivered a formal apology to the queer community that happened a few months ago. My question to you is if you had grown up in a denomination of our Christian faith where queer people were visible, affirmed, ordained, married, and fully included, how could your life have been different?

Tim (53:56)
it would have changed my life. ⁓ It would have radically altered the trajectory of my life. spent a decade in conversion therapy thinking God hated me, spent about a decade recovering from all of that. And

finally feel like in the last few years, I'm in a place where I like feel okay with me. And a lot of great things have happened in my life in the last few years and I'm very grateful for that. And there's part of me is like, well, I wouldn't have that today had I not gone through what I went through. And like, that's true. But I think had I grown up in a space where all of me was affirmed, I have no idea what I could have been or what I could have done. I imagine...

I would still be in ministry today, working in churches. Like that was always something that was what I wanted to do with my life. And I did for a season until it just became so abundantly clear that there wasn't a place for me in the world and in the system that I was working in churches for someone like me. And so it would have radically altered the course of my life to know and believe that I was loved as God made me and that there was nothing wrong or broken with me. think it's taken me

40 years of my life to be okay with me. And if I would have had that early on, who knows? But I'm grateful to be where I am today.

Alexis Rice (55:22)
Hmm. That's beautiful. All right. I was hoping that we could end on a final reading from your book Would you be comfortable reading the end? It's the the benediction.

Tim (55:29)
Yeah.

Yeah, of course, yeah.

So I wrote this book over three summers on Fire Island, which if you don't know is like the gayest place on earth. It's about two hours from New York City and generations of queer people have come here. And I came here for the first time.

about five years ago when I was three weeks sober, which is, if you know Fire Island's reputation, it's not known for being the most sober place on earth. And I found my way to a recovery meeting on the island. And it was just this really incredible experience for me to realize that God really is with us wherever we go. And that in a moment when I really needed community and connection, I found it in recovery on Fire Island.

Alexis Rice (55:59)
Yeah.

Tim (56:18)
I was working on the book last summer out here. I'm there right now, actually. And I knew I needed to write the epilogue and I was just like, I don't know how to land the plane here. And I went to a recovery meeting that night and the topic was freedom and like, what does freedom mean to you? that word was so loaded for me for so long because I spent summers at the Exodus Freedom Conference.

trying to become free from my homosexuality. so freedom is like a weird word for me. But when it came around to me, I said, you know, I think freedom is being willing to let go of whoever everyone else told me I had to be and embracing who I really believe God made me to be and living in the freedom of knowing that like I am loved just as I am. it's a my book is a queer memoir, but

Alexis Rice (57:01)
Mm-hmm.

Tim (57:10)
there's this like little part of me that's like, well, I still love God. And so I wanted to close it with a benediction. And so I wrote a little benediction and like trying to tie it all up in a way. Life rarely gives us neat endings. I'm still undoing the harm of conversion therapy even more than a decade after walking out of my therapist's office for the last time. I'm still untangling the harm.

still learning to love fully and still carrying some grief. But I know this, my story doesn't end in the shadows. It ends with a man who finally stepped into the light. There were so many moments along the way when I could have been lost entirely to shame, addiction or despair, but I'm still here and I'm free, not in spite of who I am, but because of who I finally allowed myself to become. And so now,

If you'd be kind enough to indulge me real quick, I'd love to close with a benediction. This is my prayer for you. May you sense the presence of God, your higher power, the universe, however you choose to name it. And may that presence steady you with peace, surround you with love, and remind you that you are never alone. May you know healing is not about changing who you are, but returning to who you've always been.

May you run your race with joy, unburdened by shame that was never yours to carry. May you walk through the dark without fear, knowing light and love are already within you and a great cloud of witnesses surrounds you. may you find a home where you are fully seen and may you know the gift of chosen family.

who will remind you again and again that you belong. And may you discover the truth that set me free. You are fearfully and wonderfully made and loved just as you are. Amen.

Alexis Rice (59:12)
Amen. If we could I wanted to ⁓ to show you as we end today, you know the naked pastor, I'm assuming, David Hayward. I asked that he would commission a picture about the sacred slope and what that is with gay, straight people that Jesus

Tim (59:14)
Amen.

Yeah, yes.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Alexis Rice (59:34)
he it made this.

Tim (59:36)
I've seen that. I love it.

Alexis Rice (59:41)
I just wanted to end today on my gratitude for you and who you are. Your bravery is just so much what we need. I'm so thankful for what you are doing. ⁓ with your gifts and talents, your pain and your love for God, we are going to have a beautiful

Tim (59:42)
So beautiful.

Thank you.

Thank you.

you

Alexis Rice (1:00:06)
more accepting kind of world that looks more like Jesus. And I believe that people like you are the leaders in that. So I thank you for your bravery and thank you so much for being on the Sacred Slope today.

Tim (1:00:09)
Mm-hmm.

you

Thank you so much for having me.

Alexis Rice (1:00:23)
I have one final question. What do you like to do for fun?

Tim (1:00:25)
I am a big Broadway person. I love going to a Broadway show. That's like my fun. I love getting to just get lost in a dark room with strangers and experience beautiful arts, beautiful music, beautiful whatever. And I love how Broadway helps me understand and see things in a way that maybe I haven't considered before.

Alexis Rice (1:00:30)
⁓

I love that. I love it. I th first time I saw Avenue Q in New York, I was in

Tim (1:00:53)
Yes, yes,

yes, such a good show.

Alexis Rice (1:01:00)
Thank you so much.