39. Rev. Roberto Che Espinoza, PhD (Baptist) – Becoming Human With One Another (Pride Month Reissue)

39. Rev. Roberto Che Espinoza (Baptist) – Becoming Human With One Another (Pride Month Reissue)

This week, Alexis Rice welcomes Rev. Dr. Roberto Che Espinoza, PhD (@drrobertoche), pastor, scholar, and founder of Activist Theology and Our Collective Becoming.

Roberto’s life and ministry embody a theology rooted in interdependence, tenderness, and justice. A Latinx trans man, theologian, and ordained Baptist minister, Roberto has devoted his work to spiritual formation, collective liberation, and radical ethics. He invites us to rediscover the practices of Jesus—not as abstractions, but as embodied acts of eating, walking, storytelling, and living in community. Song: Stay Safe provided by singer-songwriter and ally, Derek Webb @derekwebb.

Alexis and Roberto explore:

• Why oppositional politics fuels polarization—and how interdependence offers a better way
• How embodiment and presence can reshape theology and ethics
• Roberto’s call story: growing up in poverty and violence, finding home in the church, surviving abuse, and reclaiming his call to ministry
• The painful reality of being pushed out of churches for living prophetically, and the hope of interspiritual community
• What it means to become a stone catcher in a world of violence toward queer and trans people
• How proximity, care, and hospitality can disrupt cycles of fear and build true solidarity

💡 Key Takeaways

• Embodied presence is the starting point for repair
• The fruit of the Spirit—not fear or exclusion—must guide Christian community
• To follow Jesus is to risk proximity, solidarity, and radical love
• Flourishing requires more than inclusion—it demands spaces where difference blooms

⛪ About Our Guest
Rev. Dr. Roberto Che Espinoza is a pastor, visiting professor, activist, and scholar. A Latinx trans man, Roberto works at the intersections of embodiment, decolonial thought, moral imagination, and justice-rooted theology. He holds a BA in Bible, an MTS in Ethics, and a PhD in Constructive Philosophical Theology. He founded Activist Theology and Our Collective Becoming, is a visiting professor at Duke Divinity, and speaks nationally and internationally on gender justice, faith, and politics. Roberto lives in upstate New York.

📚 Resources Mentioned

• Activist Theology & Body Becoming — @drrobertoche
• Queer Virtue — @elizabethedman
• Survival Songs album — @derekwebb
• Homebrewed Christianity — @theologynerd
• Exvangelical — @brchastain
• Straight White American Jesus — @straightwhitejc & @bbonishi
• Work by Sarah Heath — @revsarahheath
• The Bible for Normal People — @thebiblefornormalpeople

May you find sacred ground, may the fruit of the Spirit guide you. If you’re longing for community, may you be encouraged to find one that embraces your full, questioning, beautiful selves.

Transcript

Roberto Che Espinoza (00:00)
live in a very conservative area of New York. It's Republican dominated.

and

I'm just getting to know the people. These political parties are a social We've got to become human with one another. We've got to start sharing meals, even with people we don't agree with. mean, when I lived in Nashville, I would eat roasted chicken and greens with people. And, you know, it's very hard to hate people over good

I do think we need to start turning toward one another start telling our stories. It's all about How do we shift our perspective so that we can return to ourselves and to each a lot of inner

Yes, we are polarized in this country and becoming ever so. because we rely on a system called oppositional politics.

Alexis (00:49)
Yes.

Roberto Che Espinoza (00:50)
and not interdependence. And so we, we've got to figure out how to practice interdependence. I mean, that's the work that I'm doing here. Just coming together, eating with people, talking to people, telling our stories. I've got games that we do together, you know, basically we got to learn how to play together.

Cook together, do the dishes together.

We don't all agree on things, but we had an experience of togetherness. And I think we've forgotten what those experiences of togetherness are. Yes, we should be talking about these things. Yes, let us not be silent, but it's the ways in which we come to each other. That's what I'm learning as a prophet.

Alexis Rice (01:34)
found this particular episode, you are so lucky because you have the privilege, as I did, to hear from

to give you a view of God, an angle of God.

you may have never heard about before. I'm talking about my interview today with Roberto Che Espinoza, PhD. Roberto is an incredibly special person that I got to meet during theology beer camp several years ago, that's run by Tripp Fuller. He

so much of his life studying the Bible, been studying the Christian faith, has been studying God, and Roberto is also trans. And so I just think that it's extremely important for all of us as individuals and as a collective, when we don't understand something or someone

or we've never had the privilege to get to know or ask questions to somebody might be different than we are, to meet that experience with curiosity and not judgment.

We so often make so many assumptions about people and populations that we don't even know, that we may not even understand. And so I let this be a challenge to you today.

I hope that we can enter this time with Roberto as very precious that he let us into his world the way he does in this episode. He talks about some really deep stuff

I am so excited about this episode today because you can hear from someone who is incredibly important in our body of Christ, who has a lot to teach us.

see God in Roberto and I am completely heartbroken when I hear

how much pain our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ have inflicted upon one of our own. So I challenge us to not only meet this time with open hearts, with open minds, with curiosity, but I challenge us to learn how to love better coming out of this conversation.

Roberto, thank you so much for your courage, your vulnerability, your wisdom, your voice. We need you. Let's get started.

Alexis (05:22)
Welcome back, friends. Today I'm so excited to bring you our guest, Reverend Roberto Che Espinosa, PhD. Hi, Roberto.

Roberto Che Espinoza (05:31)
Hey there.

Alexis (05:32)
Roberto holds a bachelor of arts in Bible from Hardin Simmons University, Logston School of Theology,

A Master of Theological Studies in Ethics from Evangelical Theological Seminary and a PhD in Constructive Philosophical Theology from the University of Denver and Iliff School of Theology.

He is a pastor of a small rural church in upstate New York.

He's a visiting professor at Duke Divinity author and the founder of the Activist Theology a movement rooted in spiritual formation, collective liberation, and radical ethics. Roberto is a Latinx trans man and ordained Baptist work brings together embodiment, decolonial thought, moral imagination, and justice-rooted theology.

He's spoken across the US and internationally on gender justice, trans inclusion, faith and politics, and what it means to become the theology we long for. Roberto is also a loving husband to Erin, a movement artist and educator.

Together they are building a life of tenderness, resistance and sacred embodiment in a world still learning to see the divine in everybody. Roberto, I got to personally see you speak at Theology Beer Camp run by Tripp Fuller in North Carolina a few years ago and say hi. And you've had such an impact on me by helping me see God's image through you and through

Roberto Che Espinoza (06:55)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Hmm.

Alexis (07:08)
others in ways that I maybe hadn't had the opportunity to do before. And I've learned so much from you and I thank you so much for you and your life in ministry.

Roberto Che Espinoza (07:20)
Thank you. just, know, Tripp, I just want to sort of talk a little bit about Tripp because he's one of my best friends and, ⁓ family. We became family many years ago. he wanted to be friends and I'm not trying to collect white men, you know, and he, and he said, let me buy you a beer. I said, well, I do like beer and

He learned so much about me just by being present. And I thought, okay, this is a guy I need to pay attention to. we've been friends ever since and, I am close with his parents and, Tripp brings people together and, I feel a lot of gratitude that years later we get to kind of circle around and have a different conversation than.

Maybe what we did at theology beer camp and, just to say, everybody is a theologian. You know why? Because every statement we make is both a theological statement and a political statement. So even in the way that you do your introductions is both a theology statement and a political statement. So you in the sacred slope are creating theology.

Alexis (08:24)
Hmm.

Roberto Che Espinoza (08:39)
So yes, I am professionally trained quote unquote by white supremacists to do this work. And what I am learning is lived experience is the wisdom we need. if we can begin to really feel our feet on the ground, I'm barefoot a lot.

Being on the autism spectrum. I have a hard time wearing shoes And when I have to wear shoes, I have a hard time wearing socks And my wife really needs for me to wear socks because otherwise my feet stink

Alexis (09:15)
Hahaha!

Roberto Che Espinoza (09:17)
When I don't have to wear shoes, I'm happiest. And one of the things that I have been doing since the pandemic, which is when I really started this journey of embodiment and trying to feel into things is I've come to this awareness just recently that one of the main problems we are having in this world is epistemological. The ways in which we train

students through compulsory education all the way through graduate school and we teach people to accept ideas to think about that those ideas and then to feel about that those ideas and then sense those ideas that is called epistemology ways of knowing and the ways of knowing that we have been socialized into from a top down

Is an epistemological problem. We need to flip that and go bottom And that is what you were doing from the bottom You felt compelled. So you had me back on on on your podcast, right after years And if we can begin to nurture a better Then our beingness our ontology and our ethics will also shift because

Each of those three things are connected. So if we can begin to feel into our questions and our words, our politics and our theology will be better.

Alexis (10:46)
⁓ what a blessing. Thank you. Thank you for that. And I see what you're saying. ⁓ And I totally agree with you. I think that's something that the time is ripe for.

Roberto Che Espinoza (10:58)
Yeah, yeah.

Alexis (11:00)
are living in a time in the world that I can only imagine is at this intersection of some very, very difficult tensions. And I'd love to ask you if you can share a little bit about how your early life shaped your calling.

Roberto Che Espinoza (11:17)
Mmm.

Alexis (11:18)
and what led you into theology and ministry as a trans person of faith.

Roberto Che Espinoza (11:24)
Mm-hmm.

I'm the child of a Mexican immigrant who has five birth certificates, manufactured, didn't know her legal name when she went to apply for social security, called her mother and said,

My name is not registered. What's my legal name? So the name that she was given and that's on her driver's license was not her legal name to get Social Security. So I grew up poor.

my father was a white man from Scottish ancestry.

my parents split when I was young. I don't remember my dad being at home. I was very close with my paternal grandparents, my Nono and Papa. They stayed in my life after my parents split. I'm telling you this because these first 12 years shaped me very deeply.

I lived with my mom for 12 years and of those 12 years I was conditioned and socialized into violence because she was violent. She didn't know how to handle her anger.

And I now as a 48 year old have a lot of compassion on my mom because I've come into an awareness of how angry I am as a result of being socialized into anger. I left when I was 12 to go live with my white father and I went from deep poverty to like, you know, from like

not having dog food so I'm feeding my dogs hot dogs intermittent electricity to live with my dad in San Antonio, Texas

where I lived on 40 acres and he hired undocumented Mexican woman to clean his house.

He also had other undocumented workers working the land. And my grandparents did too. And I write about this in my second book where I, a place of safety, the farm in West Texas became a site of sexual violence. And these undocumented workers sexually abused me for years. And I, I didn't know it was abuse. And, ⁓

While I was living with my mom and also experienced sexual abuse during this time, because I would spend the summers with my grandparents and my dad when I was living with my mom. There was a church about a mile from my house when I was living in Longview, Texas. I was born and raised in East Texas. And I would take the church bus

to go to Macedonia Baptist Church. And where I felt at home.

It's where I felt safe.

I went to Sunday school. I didn't want to go to Children's Church. I wanted to go to Big Church because I liked it. wanted to sing.

And you know, in the Baptist Church, they have altar calls, and I...

I felt compelled, not scared. I felt compelled by this man named at a very early age, at 10. And so I responded to the altar call and my Sunday school teacher, Denise, met me down at the front.

You know, and I, I'm like, I want to become a Christian. And I was baptized at that And I always knew I was different in many different ways. You know, my mom asked me when I was maybe five years old, if anyone ever makes fun of me for the color of my skin, she is very dark brown.

So I knew at a very early age that I was different from my mom. she would not take me out in public as a baby because she's so dark and we lived in Texas and she was basically the maid for my grandparents for two so all of this, you know, coming to Jesus, finding home and church,

I think was the first seed of my call.

at 12, I left, because I didn't think I could continue to live with my mom. I moved in with my dad who later married a white Mexican woman. He has a type maybe. I don't know. He likes those Latinas.

He took me to the Lutheran church. I wanted to go to church.

He liked to a beer every once in a while, so he didn't want to go to the Baptist Church, so we went to the Lutheran Church. So I was confirmed Lutheran. So technically, I'm Lutheran, if you want to be specific with the fucking dogma, you know, And met a youth minister who was

Alexis (15:53)
Yeah.

Roberto Che Espinoza (15:57)
my substitute teacher.

and

That is where I received my call when I started attending that church. Had to find my ride to that church. My dad wouldn't take me.

went to youth camp.

And I was just like, I want to study this stuff. So I, I then went to college to study theology and didn't know what the fuck I was doing until I got to grad school. But yeah, those, those first 12 years were very formative. and then I had a brain aneurysm when I was 16. I had what they call surrender your life to ministry, you know, I surrendered my life to ministry.

and had a brain aneurysm and almost died, ⁓ two open craniotomies to correct that. And I write about this in my second book.

I'm like, okay, I'm on a path and I don't know where I'm going.

But that's a little bit about where I think my call started. And obviously I am still on the way. mean, my primary thought partner 10 years ago said, you are not You are disconnected from your roots and you are still becoming. it's the first person I fell in love with after I divorced and,

Alexis (17:07)
Hmm.

Roberto Che Espinoza (17:10)
I have those words tattooed on my feet because it's the truest thing someone ever said to me. When I finished my PhD, I thought, okay, I've got it all figured out. And she was very quick to let me know you were just beginning.

Alexis (17:28)
Hmm, what a wise person.

Roberto Che Espinoza (17:31)
Yeah. So that's a little bit about my call story. And I think, I mean, I've had black Pentecostals say you have the double gift of prophecy prophecy gets you kicked out of places you marginalized. And, you know, it got me targeted for six years by the extreme right wing. So much so I had to flee.

to seek sanctuary and so my wife and I, my wife ended up being invited a sabbatical replacement job at Alfred University in Alfred, New which is a historic town. Frederick Douglass was here. ⁓ You know, it was abolitionist back in the day, but

Alexis (18:13)
Hmm.

Roberto Che Espinoza (18:17)
It's become a hyper-colonized site of empire. live in northern Appalachia now. Or Appalachia, I'm not sure how to say it. But she was invited to come here and teach and we ended up staying because I got this job at this church. I had reached out to this church and I said, hey, I'm a theologian and a professor. If you ever need pulpit supply, well.

They wanted me to apply for the job and, you know, being a prophet.

Let's just say the church is unable to hold prophets and I have become very aware that

Churches are still systems of power. And if the institutionality of the thing is rotten, so is the fruit.

John Wesley said, the world is my parish and I've been writing to the world. My substack is read in 92 countries. I write to the world, but I write about my life and I write about the struggles I have because it's important to be honest and transparent when you're a leader.

Alexis (19:25)
Yeah.

Roberto Che Espinoza (19:26)
And

so I write about my life and I write about the struggles I have and the ways that I've been violent and socialized into violence. the activist theology a couple of years ago evolved into, think, a better version of itself, which is called our collective becoming. that's also the name of my sub stack.

and our collective becoming is dedicated to other possible worlds. The Activist Theology Project was too.

But we've got to figure out how to rebuild social trust in the world. And so I've really turned to sort of relational embodiment work and

Alexis (19:57)
Yeah, we do.

Tell us about that.

Roberto Che Espinoza (20:06)
I just started eating with people.

Alexis (20:08)
Sounds like Jesus.

Roberto Che Espinoza (20:09)
Yeah, yeah, and you know when you think about how the church decided to go in a different way

You know, what we have now in churches is not, what was practiced in the early church days. You know, the disciples after the death of Jesus, after the crucifixion, after the state sponsored death of Jesus.

the disciples were terrified to tell the And it took them 50 days, Pentecost, Pentecost means 50, and it took them 50 days to be ready to tell the story. And...

The way they started doing that is just by gathering and eating together. So I've been doing that for the past year and a half, just organizing here in Alfred and eating with people. some people who read my sub stack, reached out to me and, I'm going to New Hampshire to eat with people. maybe I'll come to San Francisco and eat with your people. You know, I just, I'm just.

Alexis (21:12)
Yes, please!

Roberto Che Espinoza (21:15)
I'm really just trying to be with people and develop a practice of presence. I'm reading a book by my friend Carmen about brother Lawrence and we need to return to presence. We need to turn a relationship. We need to return to that bottom up epistemology where we receive sensation and information through our feet.

which is why I'm barefoot all the time so I can try to ground myself and receive different information than what my brain is telling me. So yeah, I'm just eating with people and for some reason that seemed to get me kicked out of the church again.

Alexis (21:50)
Hmm.

It breaks my heart because I hear this theme of you trying and trying to seek the heart of Jesus and be like Jesus and follow Jesus and then be around Jesus' people. And yet, and yet, and yet.

Roberto Che Espinoza (22:08)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Alexis (22:20)
I just don't see how the fruit of the Spirit is being reflected in the way that you're being treated by the same people who are also claiming to follow Jesus. And what do we do about that? so what do we do? If we want to imagine, we know this isn't it. I think a lot of people right now in the world know that this is not it. That's why a lot of people have stepped away from church spaces.

Roberto Che Espinoza (22:33)
Yeah.

Yeah

Alexis (22:45)
But like you said, tattooed on you, I know I'm not agnostic. I would love to follow faith practice rooted in earliest times of who Jesus was. What can we do to get back to some of that?

Roberto Che Espinoza (22:53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, let me just say this. I think things like agnosticism and atheism, Marxism, all that stuff is like the most faithful response right now. And part of the reason I think that is we have created God's in our own image and it's called the all American dollar.

Alexis (23:13)
Hmm.

Hmm...

Roberto Che Espinoza (23:21)
And, you know, we need to call out the golden cows.

think Nietzsche was right. God is dead and we have killed him. And if we could get back to just fucking being together, I'm a Jesus guy. I'm compelled by his practice, by his ethic.

He helps me love people.

I am certainly not perfect I don't always know how to love but I came home over the past year and a half

and engaged with my wife.

The way that I was being treated had a direct impact on how I treated my wife. See, all of these things are connected.

Alexis (24:03)
Hmm.

Roberto Che Espinoza (24:04)
And if we don't...

Like how this conversation goes will impact us both for the rest of the day and maybe the rest of the week. And if we don't realize that and come to an awareness that our experience has a material impact, we are gonna continue to be polarized and oppositional. If we can just slow down, just fucking slow down, take some time.

We all want connection and belonging.

We all want that. The past year and a half, I would talk with people and they would say the same thing. Yeah, I want connection and belonging. They would use different words. People inside the church and people outside the church. A lot of people didn't want to come to church, but they wanted to spend time with me. So we feed people all the time.

home is a, hospitality space. We've got an extra room. So I'm always hosting people who are coming through and who need a break. You know, we've got somebody here staying for three days and I'm cooking, my colleague of mine who is Latina. and

When I realize...

how I'm being treated like, fuck, I've been bullied my entire life.

I came into that awareness in March and then by May I had been forced out of the church and you know I'm just like okay the church cannot hold our complexities.

Alexis (25:26)
Mmm gosh I've been hearing that.

Roberto Che Espinoza (25:28)
You

we need to be very clear is fascism on both sides.

Alexis (25:34)
Ooh, tell us about that. What do you mean?

Roberto Che Espinoza (25:37)
Well, I don't know if people watch the DNC on TV, but it, just kind of felt like intersectional oppression Olympics. Like let's have one of everybody up here. That is not real solidarity. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are in solidarity with the people. They're in solidarity with the all American us dollar.

We need to be very clear that when I say there is fascism on both sides

The same behavior is being enacted in both parties. The consequence looks different, but it's the same kind of action. Take for example, when Joe Biden stepped down, did the people get to vote on who the nominee was going to be?

That's what I mean by there's fashionism on both sides.

Alexis (26:28)
Yeah.

Roberto Che Espinoza (26:29)
And if we are truly going to be anti-fascist, we need to unhinge from these two political parties and really evaluate what does democracy look like? I'm living on land where the first democracy was ever practiced in this country.

Alexis (26:45)
Hmm.

Roberto Che Espinoza (26:46)
Indigenous land, the Seneca people who lived here practiced the first democracy.

on this land. And I talk about that. And I'm like, I preach about that. I tell the truth. If we can't reconnect with the land, if we can't ground ourselves,

What can we

know, the Jewish mandate repair the world. take that very seriously. I, when I was in seminary, I got turned on to the Jewishness of Jesus. That's never left me. so Jewish wisdom really speaks to me. I married into a Jewish family, my mother-in-law and her partner is Jewish and Erin was raised by these people. so, I've taken this opportunity

Alexis (27:21)
Hmm.

Roberto Che Espinoza (27:29)
begin to suture the wounds of myself so that I can repair the world. And that's my work to do around getting connected.

And I think that's work for all of us. Self-inquiry. Who are we and how do we know?

Alexis (27:45)
Hmm. Yeah, that makes so much sense.

I think what you're getting to is getting back to the simplicity of kind of how Jesus preached and practiced his ministry. I hear in you the spiritual practices really modeled after what he did. Yeah, accompaniment.

Roberto Che Espinoza (27:56)
Yeah.

Accompaniment.

just accompanying people. I'm a pilgrim on the way. I walked the Camino last year in Spain.

Alexis (28:12)
⁓

wow, tell me about that. How was that?

Roberto Che Espinoza (28:15)
It changed my fucking life. And we need to go at three miles an hour. We go too fast. We need to go at three miles an hour. Three miles an hour is how is the speed at which you can walk and talk and have a conversation.

Maybe we need to start walking together for those who can walk.

and maybe begin moving together in some way. Basically, we need to learn how to flock

Alexis (28:43)
Learn how to flock. How do we flock? I hear that we eat together. I hear that we walk together. I have a question on How does that make us any different than anybody else in the world?

Roberto Che Espinoza (28:48)
Yo.

Alexis (28:55)
How can we do it differently to be more intentional like Jesus? Like what's the step? What would that next challenge be that Jesus would ask us to do? Because I have a lot of friends, you do too, who are of all faiths, all walks, all cultures. And we all eat together, we all walk together. What is the step that Jesus is calling us towards a little bit harder?

Roberto Che Espinoza (29:08)
Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I think we each need to cultivate a practice of discernment because not every relationship we need to be best friends with, right? We only have so much time and space for people.

I've really began thinking about what is my family's purpose.

and understanding that and living that at home first intentionally front of the people who see me all the time.

I think we need to be seen by the people who can see us well.

And then after we do that, let's do it in the streets and in front of other people. So, so I think, you know, I think what Jesus calls us to do it's metanoia in Greek. It's repentance. it really is to give up the old way and consider a different path that is counter hegemonic.

You know, I'm an abolitionist in every sense, including a family abolitionist. I believe family is built over time with people. It is not just given. And use this time to build family. know, queer folks call it family of choice or chosen family. I, I've got a big family because

Alexis (30:22)
Hmm.

Roberto Che Espinoza (30:34)
I believe in other possible worlds and that's really what our collective becoming is, trying to opportunity for us to turn to ourselves so that we can turn to others. It's repentance. It's metanoia. It's, giving up the old ways. It's becoming a pilgrim. It's showing up. it's just showing up.

And that takes practice.

And it's hard taken me 10 years. I finished my PhD 10 years ago. It's taken me 10 years to truly embody my scholarship.

not just rattle off quotes and theories. thank God.

Alexis (31:15)
of the reasons we're talking today is because I had seen a mini sermon that you gave on Easter. And it was just so beautiful because I've been thinking so much about people who are marginalized, oppressed in so many ways.

And a lot of that will come from, you know, your own experience. Right. So my feeling ⁓ as a woman, whatever that will mean in society am looked at differently. I've been in plenty of spaces in work. I've been in plenty of spaces where you're just not taken as seriously, for example, or you're not seen the same.

Roberto Che Espinoza (31:50)
Right.

Alexis (31:54)
or you're seen as sexualized, where you're there for your mind, right? There's all these things, right? there's, women in my life who've been assaulted, it doesn't matter what they were wearing, right? So there's all this danger for people who are oppressed and...

Roberto Che Espinoza (32:09)
We call this sexism and misogyny and violence toward anybody who is not a cis white male.

And that is real in the world. When I talk about how I was socialized into violence, I mean, I have to think about if my masculinity is not supporting black trans women, then I have got a fucking shit ton of work to do. Because who is the most marginalized woman right now? Black trans women. So.

Alexis (32:36)
us more about that. How

can we be better?

Roberto Che Espinoza (32:39)
Gosh, this is my question every day. mean, we've got to show up for people. We've got to show up for people and we've got to make sure that we are putting care into everything we do. I write on care every Friday in a variety of ways for my sub stack. I call it my Friday care package. And it's to give people an opportunity to try to put care. So I'm trying to put care into everything I do.

Alexis (33:06)
I I saw this mini sermon on Instagram for Easter, you were talking about who is going to be the stone catchers now. And you were talking about when a woman was dragged in front of all these men, right, who was caught in an act of adultery, never mind where the man was, you know, just the woman was brought out.

And then Jesus was asked about this woman, you know, and the men were expecting Jesus to have a certain reaction. And can you talk a little bit about that and why you feel like, especially in that context, but even in this context today, why that's so important and why that metaphor for a lot of what's going on can help us learn how to be better allies and care for others?

Roberto Che Espinoza (33:29)
Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I think what you see in that story is the kind of metanoia that Jesus calls us to. Jesus not only knew of the things that she had done, but also had compassion and loved her. And then didn't use her as the Used the men.

That's what we call practice, flipping the Are we standing close catch the stones? I'd love to tell you about stone catchers. It's actually a movement that I'm a part before we fled Nashville. A group of us met down in St. Petersburg, Florida to to dream of

a resource that could interrupt the violence against trans and queer people. And we came up with the name Stone Catchers. I work primarily with the Reverend Liz Edmond, who is an Episcopal priest, lives in New York City, and my wife, Erin. The three of us have basically a retreat resource that we're piloting right now at the intersection of

Liz's book Queer Virtue and my book, Activist Theology to help people, choose.

an action, we call it a scandalous act, choose an action to disrupt the violence. And that's what we call becoming a stone catcher. that could be a wide variety of things that people choose to do. you could choose to picket something or do a die-in or, know, whatever. But the stone catchers is like a retreat that we've been doing and

it's work that needs to be done. we need so much education right now the face of propaganda and in the face of misinformation. And so I, you know, I became an educator for a reason. My grandfather was an educator. My grandmother was an educator on, my dad's side and they had a huge impact on me growing up.

Alexis (35:35)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Roberto Che Espinoza (35:50)
And, I've decided to teach theology in the public square and to try, I mean, my work is politicized, right? It's not for the status quo. My work is for everyone, but not everyone is ready for my work. I've come into that awareness. And I do feel called to work with white people in particular as a mixed race Latino. you know, the great spirit is

Alexis (36:05)
Hmm

Roberto Che Espinoza (36:14)
Really pulling a good one on me living in rural white America where I'm facing white poverty. live in one of the poorest counties in New York, and I cannot unsee the poverty and the structural violence of poverty. I'll be writing my next book in a house with no heat, for example, because it's where I found studio space. It's where I found creative. I mean, I work in my office here to do podcasting, but, you know, I need a space to write and.

Alexis (36:18)
Yeah.

Roberto Che Espinoza (36:40)
I need a coffee shop, but there are really no coffee shops. There are diners, but there's not really a culture to write in a diner. So I'm going over to this family's house, where she has space, large room with two desks. And we're going to like create a wonder room for us to create in, you know, but it has no, it has no heat. I'm going to have to buy a heater to put in the room, so, so, you know, like,

when I'm talking about like my life, I'm talking I am with the people I am learning with the people. These people have become my teacher and now I'm trying to tell a better story. And that is the metanoia that needs to happen right now. narrative drives behavior. So what stories are we living?

Alexis (37:21)
Yes.

Yes, absolutely. You know, ⁓ I was thinking about how you mentioned that you're mixed Latino and white. And so you have a very special space between that you can understand different worlds from different ways, right? ⁓ You hold complexities, which are so beautiful. You're a trans man and a Christian. Maybe people didn't even know that could coexist.

Roberto Che Espinoza (37:34)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Alexis (37:50)
right? Like,

and you're saying it can and here to prove it.

Roberto Che Espinoza (37:56)
Yeah,

yeah. Yeah. You know, these days I get weary of calling myself a Christian because it's been appropriated by the government. I'd rather just call myself a follower of Jesus, you know, and give up the labels because what Christianity means today, I don't think is near what Jesus intended. In fact, Jesus wasn't trying to start a new religion. Jesus was a Jew.

If anything, we need to be returning to the wisdom of the worlds, which is why I was interested in taking the church to the future as an inter-spiritual community, because, you know, was talking to Buddhists and Hindus and witches and sorcerers, and atheist, lifelong atheist. You know, I met one guy in the bar. He asked me, am I Roberto Che Espinoza

Or Dr. and and I was like, well that depends i've been pissing off people. He was like, well I piss off people too. I think you're the right person and he says i'm a lifelong atheist, but i'm interested in what you're doing at the church And I was like, ⁓ so, know like You know it I I now pastor this emerging interspiritual community Composed of everyone

Alexis (39:07)
Mmm.

Roberto Che Espinoza (39:07)
because

everything belongs. In fact, I just read Lama Rod Owens book, listen to it, on anger and rage and it changed my life. And I'm like, ⁓ I'm gonna compost my anger. I'm so angry. And if I'm angry, I can imagine so many other people are too.

so like, I am doing the work too. I'm digging into this work, trying to figure out how do we live a better life? And, and if we can focus on like, what is our purpose?

Alexis (39:33)
Yeah.

Roberto Che Espinoza (39:37)
We're all creatives. What are we creating? We're all theologians. We're all politicians in some sense because we're making these political and theological statements. We're creating. We're all poets. So how do do that work well?

Alexis (39:53)
How do we do that work well?

What that makes me think about is is very hard in this day and age not to have just a low-line feeling of anger and rage at all the injustice that we're seeing all around us. then it's just been amplified, especially in the last several months. And then I don't think our brains were wired to be able to know what's going on in every corner of the world at the same time.

Roberto Che Espinoza (40:05)
Right.

Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

Alexis (40:19)
we're just not wired for all this. And it's not surprising to me that our mental health is just declining. have this one little brain and we're trying to figure out the big and the even focusing on, you know, our own little influential sphere and like, how do you create the rest and the community and finding the joy in that? that, and...

Roberto Che Espinoza (40:22)
No.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The hyperlocal,

the hyperlocal, we've got to refocus to the hyperlocal. Get to know your neighbors. You you, you live in a metropolitan area. So, you know, how do you begin to footprint care? Not only in your home, but next door. And, you know, like I just heard from my teacher, ⁓ we, talk basically every day. She lives in Chicago and,

Alexis (40:44)
Okay. Hmm. Hmm.

Roberto Che Espinoza (41:08)
her condo building has bed

she said a voice, but we taught by voice memo. Okay. My teacher and I are talking by voice memo is so wild. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they're bed bugs and she, she and her husband had, the heat treatment to take care of the bed bugs where they have to take out everything in the house that might melt because they heated up to.

Alexis (41:17)
do that too. That's a thing. It's a new thing. It's the new texting. It's the voice memos, texting the voice memos.

Roberto Che Espinoza (41:36)
some high temperature to kill the bed bugs. And there are other people in the building who don't have access to that treatment. So they might have to just live with bed bugs. Well, how do we live in community then if we're going to have to live with bed bugs? I mean, these are real questions that people are encountering. And I would say, ⁓ how do we put care into that? Man, that's going to take patience and time and effort.

and probably crowdsourcing to help these people get the treatment. I mean, that's the kind of interdependence we need right now.

And if we don't do it, we may not survive ourselves. I started saying in 2020 on my podcast, on the activist theology podcast, that we are failing to be human with one another as a society, And so we need to do better. And I think that means doing better with ourselves so that we can do better with each other. And that first starts at home.

Alexis (42:24)
Yes, we are failing to be human with one another. absolutely. Yeah.

starts at Yeah, it does. Gosh, that really, that makes sense. okay, some of us are ready to do that, right? Some of us are ready to try to be better and we're actually at a pretty good space We're like, okay, I've got community and I'm trying to be caring and I'm trying to follow the words of Jesus wherever I can and I feel like I'm in this good space.

I'm seeing injustices and I'm helping, right? So there's people like that, but then there's people in our lives that are like, not. They're in the hands of white Christian nationalism, right? And they are the people who taught us about the love of Jesus, right? And the unconditional love and how we're supposed to love our neighbors as ourselves. then now they've

Roberto Che Espinoza (43:07)
Right.

Right?

Alexis (43:23)
chosen to way that they feel is morally superior. And they happen to be looking at people like us and are saying, you guys are the morally the moral degenerates. And so there's this disconnect right now, and a lot of us, especially who were raised in Christian conflicts in family.

Roberto Che Espinoza (43:28)
Right.

Right, right.

Yeah. Yep.

Alexis (43:46)
And that is so different, right?

Like when we have our nuclear circles or our close circles and we're trying to figure out how to love when we can't do just chosen family and do that. And we all are thinking the other is morally kind of like not doing it right or not acting like Jesus. So what do we do because we can't continue this either. So like, what do we do?

Roberto Che Espinoza (43:51)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah.

Yep. Yep.

Alexis (44:14)
How do we interact with those

who are white Christian nationalists and our family and our close friends. And so we understand where they're coming from. And it's not this out there kind of feeling. It's this, we understand where it came from because maybe we also, you know, we're raised in a lot of that stuff. And yeah, what do you think about that?

Roberto Che Espinoza (44:19)
Well, yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Right.

I mean, I think a lot of things about that. think there's conflict about the right? I mean, articulating it in a particular way and someone on the other side might articulate it differently, right? So there's conflict about the would say as a society, are very distracted by this. ⁓

I live in a predominantly,

live in a very conservative area of New York. It's Republican dominated.

and

I'm just getting to know the people. These political parties are a social We've got to become human with one another. We've got to start sharing meals, even with people we don't agree with. mean, when I lived in Nashville, I would eat roasted chicken and greens with people. And, you know, it's very hard to hate people over good

I do think we need to start turning toward one another start telling our stories. It's all about How do we shift our perspective so that we can return to ourselves and to each a lot of inner

Yes, we are polarized in this country and becoming ever so. because we rely on a system called oppositional politics.

Alexis (45:53)
Yes.

Roberto Che Espinoza (45:54)
and not interdependence. And so we, we've got to figure out how to practice interdependence. I mean, that's the work that I'm doing here. Just coming together, eating with people, talking to people, telling our stories. I've got games that we do together, you know, basically we got to learn how to play together.

Cook together, do the dishes together.

We don't all agree on things, but we had an experience of togetherness. And I think we've forgotten what those experiences of togetherness are. Yes, we should be talking about these things. Yes, let us not be silent, but it's the ways in which we come to each other. That's what I'm learning as a prophet.

It was too much on my body, too much on my mental health. was suicidal before we left Nashville. I wasn't leaving the house. I'm agoraphobic now. I don't leave the house here.

Alexis (46:39)
Yeah.

Roberto Che Espinoza (46:50)
We've got to turn to ourselves and each other. I, and I know I keep saying that we need a practice. That's what I'm saying. We don't have a practice of coming together. What we do have a practice of is passive knowledge where a teacher preaches something or says something and the congregation just passively receives it. There's no embodiment.

Alexis (47:12)
Right.

Roberto Che Espinoza (47:12)
We've got to turn to each other, embody this We gotta body our feelings.

Alexis (47:17)
has been the impact all this trans antagonism and the massive, just consistent barrage of attacks on humans, on beloved children of God, on trans people in the last year? And how has that impacted you, especially as a Jesus person yourself?

Roberto Che Espinoza (47:29)
Yeah. Yeah.

⁓ Yeah,

You know, I'll be honest, there are times when I'm you know, I have full arm tattoos and, you know, ICE was arresting people with tattoos and so when, you know, I recently flew and I was like, well, let me wear a hoodie with long

anxiety is heightened and I already live with anxiety, you know, my knuckles are tattooed. So I can't I can't undo it,

So there's fear and anxiety. I think the fact that the church that I was serving had no awareness of what Erin and I were dealing with, like since the election. After the election, one person texted, not from the and said,

I'm so sorry, we are here for you.

in the midst of everything that's happening, it's also been clarifying on who's with us.

And it's, that is sobering of who's willing to say something and who's not. we live in a world of performative allyship.

that's why I say if my masculinity doesn't support black trans women, maybe I'm not living fully into my purpose. The trans antagonism, the transphobia, the trans violence. I mean, there was a black trans man killed 90 minutes from here in February by five people.

I was asked to be at the vigil at two different places.

You know, I have to ask myself, like... The ways of Jesus got Jesus killed. I'm not trying to be a martyr. I do not want to be a martyr. I do not feel called to that. But I do have to ask myself, is this going to get me killed? You know, I'm trying to be very careful about what I'm putting online, how I'm doing it online.

and I'm trying to reach trans people right now and just say, hey, I'm here. We can do this. Let's just turn inward to ourselves, repair ourselves. Let's start at home. Find your people. But you know, I was estranged from my dad because of who I am. When I graduated high school and left home,

I mean, I've been on my own ever since. And so I can imagine that there are thousands of other people who are on their own. And also families who...

are not talking to their trans kids or their queer kids. I know that everybody is suffering, but what I'm interested in is the displaced people, so those trans and queer folks who don't have connections.

I don't know how to heal the polarization. I just know that we need repair work. If we can focus on repairing ourselves in order to repair the world, we might be able to step a little bit closer to each other because the only distance between two people is one story.

Alexis (50:28)
I was speaking with Derek Webb, not that long ago, his new album is called Survival Songs. And it's so beautiful.

Roberto Che Espinoza (50:33)
Yes.

I'm on the album, did you know that?

Alexis (50:38)
I did not. What? Because I've listened to the whole thing many times.

Roberto Che Espinoza (50:39)
Yeah, I'm on the album. Yeah, I, I,

the one who says you are becoming you are forever becoming.

Alexis (50:47)
Can you talk a little bit about what that project means to you? Because that's so cool you're on that. I didn't realize that. And he had talked about, he had reached out to his queer friends, family, people that he cares about to get input into this love letter using his power and privilege to help be a stone catcher and to help protect people right now. So can you tell me what that meant to you and...

Roberto Che Espinoza (51:07)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, mean, Derek is a special guy. I've known Derek for a long time him perform in Caedmon's Call when I was in college and was always really drawn to his work in particular. Because he's a black sheep like me.

Alexis (51:12)
that was

Roberto Che Espinoza (51:32)
So yeah, when he reached out and asked me to do some audio recordings of what I would want my younger self to know, I thought...

Wow. So I really spent time thinking about it. what would I want to tell myself? Derek and I are going to work on an album for my next book and I'm trying my hand at writing some songs and he's going to put music to it. He's also going to do the music for our podcast. So I'm very excited about that. Yeah.

Alexis (52:01)
That's amazing.

Roberto Che Espinoza (52:03)
So I basically try to collaborate with people as much as I can. is doing important work and...

I mean, we just need more derricks in the world.

Alexis (52:10)
We do. Yeah. What would you say to young queer, trans Christians, people that are in church now, maybe in evangelical spaces, who know that they are queer and are terrified, Who are being told that you are welcome, but if you come out, you don't belong in God's story.

Roberto Che Espinoza (52:26)
Yeah.

I was told my entire life not to be who I was. had a partner for a long told me I wasn't trans and didn't want me to transition.

And I understand that, it would have changed her identity

suffered great loss to be who I am.

And it is hard.

I still keep losing people for who I am. And there are people waiting for you. waiting for you to become who you are called to be. Please, I beg you, do not let someone in power tell you that you are wrong or that God has miscommunicated with you.

Please don't let the messages of this world get into your I think...

We all want to belong.

but not at the expense of it costs us our life.

Don't take a job where you can't be yourself.

Don't partner with someone you can't be yourself. And if you find yourself in that situation, find a therapist, a spiritual director.

Be kind to yourself. The world will not be kind to you. I've been bullied my entire life.

It's traumatizing.

But you gotta be you.

one way or the other.

Alexis (53:54)
know, a core memory that really shifted something in me and understanding what you're saying is when we were at beer is basically, for those who don't know, an adult vacation Bible school, right, for theology nerds. And we'd just sit around and drink beer and talk and commune.

Roberto Che Espinoza (54:09)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tug.

Alexis (54:17)
I loved so much though is that there were openly queer people praising God together. I don't think a lot of us have really been able to experience that yet one way or the other. And there's so much that queer people have to teach the rest of the world about God.

Roberto Che Espinoza (54:20)
Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

No.

Alexis (54:40)
And the memory that I have, it was so beautiful and honest and it was bittersweet. And I remember there were ⁓ a few trans folks sitting next to me during one of the sessions and someone raised their hand and asked you a question they were clearly really nervous and they were so sincere and they were asking just how to keep showing up as who they are in their spaces and how to keep practicing their Christian faith.

Roberto Che Espinoza (55:01)
Yeah.

Alexis (55:06)
they are authentically who they are and they have this call like you talked about in the beginning, this call that I am connected to Jesus and I wanna follow the way of Jesus and I am continuously rejected by spaces created by humans. And...

Roberto Che Espinoza (55:07)
Right.

Yep. Yep.

Right.

Alexis (55:23)
when they're part of this community, it doesn't always make space for them. And I could feel the fear in their voices. They describe that pain.

Roberto Che Espinoza (55:30)
What did I say? Did I say something stupid? Did I was that an asshole? Did I was an asshole?

Alexis (55:32)
NAH!

No, you, I will admit I don't remember what you said, but I remember that person was comforted.

Roberto Che Espinoza (55:45)
good. ⁓ I

thought, my god, I'm yes. Cause I'm known to say some shit that, you know, disturbs people.

Alexis (55:56)
But that is my question. So for churches who are there, right, who are open and affirming, because there are thousands of churches who are open and affirming, thank God, there are. how would you encourage those churches right now who are ready, who are welcoming, and who are wanting to accept the queer community?

Roberto Che Espinoza (56:04)
Yep. Yep.

Alexis (56:13)
that they're not just allowed to be there, but that you're truly wanted loved and safe just as anybody else. Like, what do you challenge these spaces to do to be even more welcoming and better than where we're at right now?

Roberto Che Espinoza (56:19)
Yeah.

Yep.

Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to say something a couple of times and then I'm going to unpack it.

The logic of inclusion demands the logic of The logic of inclusion, so practices of inclusion, demands There are a lot of churches who are open and affirming, that's right. And there are a lot of churches who are including a lot of people. And by that very practice, they are excluding others.

So we need to get out of this binary of inclusion and really practice communities of radical difference. If we can really become a community of radical difference where truly all are welcome.

which is hard This is not for the goal of unity, because unity flattens out differences.

What we need are differences to be the blooms.

And if we can achieve that, maybe the church will continue.

Alexis (57:25)
Can you give us one example of what that could look like in a church?

Roberto Che Espinoza (57:28)
Well, I don't know if it can happen in a church.

Because churches a particular culture of accommodation.

We accommodate supremacy. We accommodate power.

And then that often inoculates the system with disease.

So don't know if it can happen in a church. but one of the ways I think is change the liturgy to include everyone and get out of the binary of he and she.

Maybe call God the Great Spirit, that's what I started doing. To truly include everyone.

Alexis (58:02)
Mm-hmm.

Roberto Che Espinoza (58:05)
But you know, a lot of people are not ready to make, you know, they want people in their pews. They want people to give. don't know that churches are really ready to have, to be in real relationship with queer and trans people.

Alexis (58:16)
You don't know if people are really ready to be in relationship in church with queer and trans people.

Roberto Che Espinoza (58:23)
Like church people people who go to church every sunday You know, we I I meet a lot of people who want community connection and belonging But they don't find it on sundays and I don't think the people who find it on sundays Want to different orientation

Alexis (58:25)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Roberto Che Espinoza (58:41)
think there is a generation emerging that...

wants conversation over being talked at, which is why I'm doing salons and coming to people's. Yeah, I mean, I'm basically on the road traveling and doing salons. I'm going to New Hampshire to do one at a farm with brunch church. And they want me to do a teaching at the table and I'll just talk about.

Alexis (58:50)
You wanna talk about that?

Roberto Che Espinoza (59:06)
my life and the practices of Jesus, you know, but, I think that's what people are needing right now. Like real material, tangible not going to find it on a Sunday morning, I don't think. I'm finding people who are 85 years old who want to have coffee with me and have a spiritual conversation with me. And then I've, and then I've, find a 17 year old who want to

Alexis (59:14)
Yeah.

That's awesome.

Roberto Che Espinoza (59:29)
have coffee with me, you know, so this is an intergenerational inter spiritual community movement that that our collective becoming is doing. And yeah, this next academic year is basically we're going to do some fundraising so that I can fly to places and be in residence with people and just practice this. With food and in connection.

Alexis (59:49)
That's so awesome.

You're also Latino, what do you wish people who aren't part of the Latino community better understood about what we're all witnessing right now in the United States? for those of us who really want to be effective stone catchers in this moment, we need to be paying attention to? And what does real solidarity look like?

Roberto Che Espinoza (1:00:10)
I think as a child of an immigrant woman who has struggled her entire life with racism, sexism, and we're seeing is what's been done for years. It's just not been televised. The trauma of televising ICE raids

harms all of many of us are so far from

LA.

that we often don't know what to do.

You know, what's happening in LA and I've been watching clips about masked people coming in, just picking up mechanics. And finally someone caught them on said, us a warrant, show us your ID. And they wouldn't do we don't really know who these people And that should be terrifying all of us. I mean, I'm terrified to walk.

through an airport without a hoodie And I'm light and can pass unless I'm speaking Spanish. And then people are probably with you too.

I mean, we have got to get closer to people. solidarity is about proximity. If we are not in proximity to the harm, we may not be in But one of the tangible things that people could do is like give to bail funds. I mean,

punitive system that we have in this country toward anyone, including immigrants, is not sustainable. this country will continue to collapse if we take immigrant work away.

we are all together in this and what happens in LA, in Orange County, also impacts me some way because it's a butterfly effect. And so give to bail funds, figure out who the,

Alexis (1:01:34)
Absolutely.

Roberto Che Espinoza (1:01:53)
immigrant rights people are that we need to be supporting showing up for your neighbors. I mean, there was an ICE raid up here near Buffalo.

a rural area. there are undocumented workers that I'm sure are here. Agriculture is the number two economic producer in New York, so I know there are farm workers here.

we've got to show up in material ways, give to bail funds we need to interrupt the violence. And that's what it means to be a stone catcher right now, interrupt the violence in whatever way possible. Just like we saw, the mayorial candidate in New York city, hang on to the guy that they were arresting.

It's that is solidarity. That is the kind of work that we need to be doing and it's risky. But if we are not willing to risk, what in the hell are we willing to do?

Right now life is you take the teachings of Jesus And we need to outfox the empire so that we can truly build the beloved community. And that's the work that we're doing here.

Alexis (1:02:54)
Ooh, I love it. So as today, see you have a few books behind you, but I'm curious for people who want to learn more and know more than maybe what they were taught about the Christian faith outside of their typical evangelical upbringings. books, resources, podcasts, people online, are there a couple that come to mind share?

Roberto Che Espinoza (1:03:08)
Yeah.

Alexis (1:03:17)
I know.

Roberto Che Espinoza (1:03:16)
gosh, there's so many. There's so many. And I feel like

this is a trick question because I've been on all these podcasts. And if I don't mention one, somebody else is going to going to be upset. Well, well, I mean, I've been on a lot of different podcasts and I would say go listen to everything that people have put out, because people are doing theological education through podcasting.

Alexis (1:03:22)
Hehehehehe

We could just mention yours if you want, because they're awesome.

Roberto Che Espinoza (1:03:44)
So obviously Tripp Fuller and Blake Chastain and Kevin Garcia and, ⁓ straight white American Jesus, whose name is escaping me, but has a PhD in religion. Bradley Onishi, Sarah Heath and,

Alexis (1:03:55)
Onashi,

Roberto Che Espinoza (1:03:58)
I don't know that reading books is going to be the way. think conversation really is the way. And, and I would encourage people, sure, read books, but then talk about it with someone. don't just read it and keep it to yourself, let's have conversations. That's what I'm trying to do is just use conversation as content a little bit like what you're doing on this podcast.

Alexis (1:04:08)
Hmm.

Roberto Che Espinoza (1:04:22)
Because that's how we learn. That's how we cultivate wisdom. And when we step into the wisdom economy, we can make shit happen. Magic.

Alexis (1:04:31)
I love it. All closing today, there's probably been somebody who's listening right now who hasn't been prayed over in a long time. And I was wondering if you could just close us in praying for people who just might need it right now.

Roberto Che Espinoza (1:04:32)
yes.

Sure,

sure. Yeah, I've come to a practice God the Great Spirit because I feel like it's more encompassing and I've borrowed that from a lifelong Unitarian whose name is Carlin. So I can pray if I can pray in the name of the Great Spirit. Great.

Alexis (1:04:54)
Beautiful.

Hmm.

Absolutely.

Roberto Che Espinoza (1:05:08)
Great spirit. We are here.

We are here in how we are.

Unstable. Maybe some of us call us broken. Broken hearted.

And yet we still come.

and whatever the path is before us.

My hope is that you, the great spirit, will guide us, be a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. For we know when we repair ourselves, we truly repair the world just as Jesus did. Help us to lead with love, with kindness, and with magic.

Be with us as we depart. In your name we pray, amen.

Alexis (1:05:59)
Amen. Reverend Roberto Che Espinoza, muchas gracias. Muchas gracias por su tiempo. And ⁓ just to end on one last question, what do you like to do for fun these days?

Roberto Che Espinoza (1:06:05)
Gracias. Sí, gracias.

I'm

learning how to play. I'm literally learning how to play. I do the mad libs with my wife. Do you know what mad libs are?

Alexis (1:06:21)
yes, I'm old enough to know mad libs. I teach them to my kids.

Roberto Che Espinoza (1:06:22)
Yeah, yeah, so

so I do mad libs with my wife at dinner and I love to cook I love to host I'm a I'm an intense introvert, but if you come to my house, I'll show you a good time

Alexis (1:06:35)
I love it. love it. Thank you so much. Until next time.

Roberto Che Espinoza (1:06:37)
Thank you. Thank you.

Alexis Rice (1:06:44)
Thank you for being with us today on the Sacred Slope. If you'd like to nominate a pastor, priest or reverend, send me an email at Alexis@thesacredslope.com. Music was by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin and Sean Spence. I'm Alexis Rice, your host. may the fruit of the spirit guide you this week.

Go in peace, friends.