34. Science & Faith Part 2 - Pastor Will Rose (ELCA Lutheran) - The False Choice Between Faith and Science

34. Science & Faith Part 2 - Pastor Will Rose (ELCA Lutheran) - The False Choice Between Faith and Science 

Alexis Rice sits down with Pastor Will Rose, ELCA Lutheran pastor in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, co-host of Systematic Geekology, and creator of the faith and science podcast Your Matter Matters, for a deeply compassionate conversation about curiosity, science, deconstruction, and why asking honest questions should never make someone feel spiritually unsafe.

Together, Alexis and Will unpack the false binary so many Christians were handed between faith and science - and the shame many people carry after being taught that questioning Genesis, evolution, the Big Bang, healthcare, vaccines, or scientific expertise somehow meant they were “falling away from God.”

Will shares how many progressive and mainline Christian spaces approach scripture, theology, and science very differently than fundamentalist environments, and why intellectual humility, wonder, and curiosity can actually deepen faith instead of destroy it.

At the center of this conversation is one powerful idea:

“If that’s how the universe operates - growing, evolving, shifting - I think our faith can be like that too.”

This episode is an invitation for anyone who has ever felt spiritually trapped, intellectually unsafe, or afraid that asking honest questions could cost them belonging.

💬 In This Episode

• Why many Christians were taught faith and science cannot coexist
• Curiosity vs “doubt culture” in evangelical spaces
• Why asking questions should not be treated as rebellion against God
• The danger of certainty culture in Christianity
• Genesis, evolution, Adam & Eve, and biblical interpretation
• “God of the gaps” theology and why it creates fear
• Why many pastors feel pressure to have all the answers
• The importance of intellectual humility in faith communities
• How science and theology ask different kinds of questions
• COVID, vaccines, healthcare, and anti-science narratives in churches
• Christian nationalism and the weaponization of faith
• The erosion of trust in institutions, experts, and scientists
• Why progressive pastors and churches need more visibility
• Theology Beer Camp and creating safe spaces for spiritual exploration
• Why people do not need to abandon science in order to love God
• The healing power of realizing “I’m not the only one asking this”

📚 Books & Resources Mentioned

• Pastor Will Rose: @willnrose
• Your Matter Matters Podcast: @yourmattermatters
• Fish with Feet: Human Evolution and the Image of God - Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray @janetkelloggray from @eerdmans
• The Sin of Certainty - Pete Enns @thebiblefornormalpeople
• The Great Emergence - Phyllis Tickle
• Systematic Geekology @systematicgeekology
• Theology Beer Camp @theologybeercamp
• Homebrewed Christianity with Tripp Fulelr @theologynerd @trippfuller
• Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray: @janetkelloggray
• Tripp Fuller: @trippfuller
• Pete Enns: @thebiblefornormalpeople
• Ted Peters
• Joshua Noel
• Francis Collins
• Neil deGrasse Tyson: @neildegrassetyson

Transcript

Alexis Rice (00:00)
where that hits me is sometimes that was phrased to me as doubting. like in faith and science, well, I'm not sure if Adam and Eve are real or talking snake was real. I go to school and I hear about evolution and I don't understand how this can,

jive together, I don't get it is starting that conversation It's like, well, do you believe the power of God? So it's like this certainty of you are supposed to have this wonder and curiosity and respect for God. And just like, we don't know how it happened, but that's how it happened. And this didn't happen. And if you feel like that, then

Maybe you're doubting, maybe you're not on fire for God. And so there's just these seeds really early that create this binary that I feel like the more I talk to mainline pastors all around the United States and around the world, that's just not the way that you set people up to live in their faith. Is that right?

Will Rose (00:46)
Right.

yeah, I think you're onto something there. think what comes along with that is this kind of shame Like you said, a fear of if it's a house of cards, you pull one thing away, it's all going to come crumbling down. And if we put God as like God of the gaps in these kinds of mysteries, and if we start answering mysteries, then

Alexis Rice (01:01)
Yeah.

Will Rose (01:06)
we're just gonna push the way. But what I've learned in hearing and listening to scientists is that they are always answering questions. They're not gonna answer everything. There's this kind of hubris along with kind of materialistic scientists as well who think like, science is gonna answer all questions. But there's plenty of scientists like, nope, we're just gonna have more. You answer one, they're gonna have 20 more questions. and so if you keep putting God in the gaps you are gonna push God out of way, but if you...

open to like God is a part of all this draws me deeper into the mystery of the universe moral arc to the universe that's behind it yeah, there's an openness and of who I the universe, the fabric of the universe growing, evolving, shifting,

If that's how the universe operates, and I think our faith could be like that too, give people permission can be like that with our faith too. And we don't have to fear or feel shameful that you have some questions and doubts, because that's eventually going to lead to an openness of learning and curiosity.

Alexis Rice (02:05)
Welcome to The Sacred Slope, where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground. I'm Alexis Rice. And last time on The Sacred Slope, we talked with Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray about evolution, young earth creationism, scientific literacy, and the false choice so many of us were handed and are still being handed between faith and science. I know that conversation may have stirred something up for some of you because many of us were raised or are being raised in church spaces where curiosity can feel dangerous.

where asking questions about Genesis, a talking snake, evolution, the Big Bang, vaccines, or science itself could make you feel like you were drifting away from God. if you question one thing, that whole structure might collapse. But one of the biggest takeaways from that conversation was this. Science and faith are not enemies. Science asks how, faith asks why. And millions of Christians around the world fully embrace both. So today,

We're continuing this conversation in part 2 of our series of Science and Faith with Pastor Will Rose. Will is a progressive Lutheran pastor from North Carolina and creator of the podcast, Your Matter Matters. He's also buddies with Tripp Fuller and we'll be seeing him at Theology Beer Camp. Your Matter Matters is a thoughtful series helping people navigate faith and science without fear. I have to tell you, for many of you, this conversation is going to feel like a breath of fresh air.

because there is something deeply healing about hearing a pastor talk about science, curiosity, evolution, and theology without this panic or shame or fear-based certainty, just openness and humility and wonder and compassion. I feel like I'm in the real world. And I want to say something to anyone listening who feels spiritually trapped right now. If your church has made you afraid to ask questions, if your church has made you feel intellectually unsafe, if your church

has taught you that curiosity is rebellion or doubt. If your church has made you feel like you must reject science in order to love God, it is OK to find another church. There are millions of churches all around the world. And if you can't find one near there are so many stream their church services. Really.

There are churches all over the world where science is respected, where questions are welcomed, where LGBTQ people are affirmed, where women lead, where anti-racism is taken seriously, are protected, where faith is allowed to grow and evolve, and where you do not have to shut down your brain in order to belong. But sometimes you do have to go looking. You have to go looking for those spaces. And I hope this conversation will help you realize that you are not alone if you've been carrying those quietly for years.

Here's my conversation with Pastor Will Rose.

Alexis Rice (05:26)
Welcome back to the Sacred Slope, friends, where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground. I'm Alexis Rice, and today we're diving into a conversation I know so many people desperately need right now. It is a conversation about science, faith, curiosity, and the myth that somehow you have to choose between your brain and your spirituality. So today I have with me Pastor Will Rose. Hi, Pastor Will.

Will Rose (05:51)
Hello. Very, very nice and blessed to be here with you today. I love your work and looking forward to this conversation.

Alexis Rice (05:57)
Me too. I want to tell our audience a little bit about you. Will is an ELCA, Lutheran pastor in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. And his church hosted theology beer camp in 2022, which is actually where we met. I was so grateful. I've talked on the podcast before how that was a pivotal for have in large part thanks to you for choosing to host that.

Will Rose (06:13)
Mm-hmm.

Yay, that makes me feel great. I love

Alexis Rice (06:23)
curate the pop geek god stage over the years. He also co-hosts Systematic Geekology.

Across the Bifrost and a really thoughtful faith and science podcast called Your Matter Matters. It's designed as a bingeable limited series for churches and small groups wrestling with some of your biggest questions around science and Christianity. what I personally appreciate about Will's work is that Will creates space for curiosity without panicking people and creates wonder without the certainty culture and

you create also thoughtful faith that's not requiring fear. So it's just a much, it's a refreshing way of living out our Christian faith. And that example is really beautiful, especially for people, think, interested in rebuilding faith after rigid environments in the middle of deconstruction. Maybe they put their faith on a shelf for many years, but because of the current administration, they feel a sense of morality. And so they're now willing to take

some of this back. the space that you've created is really deeply healing. So I'm glad you're here. Welcome to the Sacred Slope.

Will Rose (07:31)
Thanks Alexis. I love hearing that articulated back at me because we're in the midst of doing that kind of stuff and you're just kind of a lot of plates spinning, a lot of reaction to what's going on in the world and culture and people's questions and all this going on in our lives. But to hear that articulated back and then to hear us helping create that space and curating that space and helping people navigate a really difficult and scary world at times warms my heart.

yeah, I warm my heart also with the Theology Beer Camp in 2022. We were coming out of COVID and we had just renovated our buildings. And so we really hadn't had a lot of people in our church. So that was the fullest. Our church had been in a really long time with Theology Beer Camp. And then there were some who attended who shared with me that it was first time they'd been in a church, not just because of COVID, but just for a long time of not feeling comfortable or safe enough to enter back into.

a sanctuary or through church doors. And so us opening doors for people to ask big questions and get creative and get zesty and have beer and have conversations was great. And glad to see that theology beer camp has continued to grow and the stages have continued to grow. it's been fun helping create the Pop God stage and geek culture and that kind of stuff. we'll talk about that later on, but

That's an area where people are asking similar questions and wrestling with similar things just through different lens and different stories. So yeah, it's really fun to be here and thanks.

Alexis Rice (08:52)
that's great. And so I might mention that Theology Beer Camp is every year, it's in a different city with Tripp Fuller and we're both going in 2026. Kansas City, Missouri, right? I want to tell Tripp, like, can we please get a West Coast one? These are such big flights for me, but it's worth it.

Will Rose (09:10)
Yeah, I'll come to the West Coast. East

Coast would be selfish. We'll battle between East Coast and West Coast. He's on the East Coast, so we could get him back to the East Coast. But yeah, I'd go to West Coast, especially in your neck of the woods. I'll go to the ocean and surf a little bit on your side of the country. Yeah. They're like, Will missed his panel. Why isn't he up here? Where is he? And he's like, I think he just was running to the beach with his wetsuit and surfboard. Yep.

Alexis Rice (09:15)
He he.

We've got some good waves, up here. They're pretty intense.

You

that's so good. I love it so much.

I'd love to start by asking you about what is the Lutheran denomination What does that even mean? A lot of people know Pastor Paul Drees who a pastor's lab together with, who's also from this denomination. grew up and a lot of people who...

are or are not in the Christian faith, at least in the United States, see people who are in positions of power, who are Christian nationalists and think that's the only way to be a Christian. This is the only thing that you are allowed to believe. there's have to believe You can't believe in science or evolution. The Big Bang Theory, we'll get into that later. You have to be pro-life. You have to be anti-gay. You have to potentially believe that women should not be

working. a new whole phenomenon is that whole bro culture. Yeah. Yeah, just you shouldn't even work getting our, you some people think that we shouldn't have the right to vote anymore. Just all the things that, Christians are supposed to look like really good and pure people and all of that. It's definitely not progressive. And the narrative is you cannot be progressive in Christianity.

Will Rose (10:24)
Not just pastor, but working in general. Not just you can't be a pastor. It's like you shouldn't even work. Yeah, earn a living or a bank account.

Alexis Rice (10:48)
I hear it all the time online still. People are like, it's an oxymoron. You cannot be progressive and Christian. I have a pastor in front of me. Can you tell me if there's more than one way to be a Christian?

Will Rose (10:58)
The answer is yes. Next question. No,

I, yeah, in terms of Lutheranism and the Lutheran Church, I mean, not doing like a long history lesson, but back in 1500s, Martin Luther sparked the Reformation, nailing 95 protest statements or Facebook posts a church door, protesting way the capital C was and forgiveness. And so he was like, hey, that's inconsistent with what I'm reading in the Bible.

these kind of transactional understanding of how you receive forgiveness or grace. Wait a minute, that doesn't seem like that's the way Jesus operated. It doesn't seem like that's the way Paul articulated grace. Huh, let's have a conversation and a debate about this. And so along with ⁓ fear of losing power and resources and influence, they tried to shut this guy up and excommunicate him, but it really just sparked the Reformation. So for the past 500 years, the Lutheran Church has been this

reform movement within the larger church to say, hey, whenever people start talking about works righteousness or you have to earn your salvation, you have to do this or do that, our spidey sense goes up and we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what about God's love and unconditional grace that's in Christ and how he expressed that and postured himself in the world? And so, of course, with any denomination, with any Christian tradition, within the denomination, you have those who are more conservative and read it more literally, and then you have those who are more progressive and

more creative in terms of how they understand their theology and how they operate in the world. so ELCA Lutherans, Evangelical Lutheran Church of is probably left of center and more progressive of the Lutherans within the world and within America. Luther back in, man, not to bore you too bad, but back in the 80s, there was a merger of a number of Lutheran denominations, American Lutheran Church of America,

American Lutheran Church, Lutheran Church of America, Missouri Synod tried to get in on that, but then they ended up breaking away. And so it became the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America of a merger of different Lutheran denominations. And so we're the largest Lutheran denomination in America and intend to be across the board in terms of its leadership, in terms of where we are in the world right now, social statements, progressive on the spectrum of Lutheranism.

Whereas we ordain women, stand up for the marginalized, pro-refugee and immigrant and working with that and human sexuality, those kinds of things. So that's where we are in kind of the spectrum of things. And then my context, I'm ELCA congregation in Chapel Hill, North Carolina on the doorstep of University of North Carolina. So not only are we part of the ELCA, but also part of the university town.

So we have all kinds students and professors and grad students coming through who are still asking big questions keeping things interesting with movements and social and theological in our area and around the world. never a dull moment here in our congregation on the doorstep of a university.

Alexis Rice (13:49)
Mm, I love can you tell us a little bit about your schooling, your credentials?

Will Rose (13:54)
I grew up on the East coast in Wilmington, North Carolina, South end of Riceville beach, a beach bum, and then went to UNC Wilmington, and think in marine biology because I was just going to surf and play with dolphins all day. But then I was like, Oh wait, I have to do, take a lab. have to learn science, have to learn equations, have to learn chemistry. Maybe I need to shift a little bit. I was pretty active in my campus ministry and then worked at a summer camp during the summers at a Lutheran camp.

go to seminary one day was heard and I was like, man, I mean, I would just be a youth pastor and that seems fun. I love camp. And I was starting to read a little bit more theology and read the Bible on my own and started to claim my faith, not just as something I inherited from my parents or grew up in and kind of Lutheranism, but said, hey, I think this is something that I want to be a part of my life. reading more theological books, C.S. Lewis and reading Lord of the Rings and

And I was just like, man, this is, you know, knowing his story of being a Catholic, I was like, this is fun. So, eventually went to an in Columbia, South Carolina, served a church in South in Boca as a youth pastor for a handful of years. And wife and I both had our girls down there and then she wanted to go back to school and get her doctorate in education. So we moved back to Columbia, South Carolina for her to go to school, served a church there seven years. And then when she wrapped up,

her dissertation and was looking for a job. congregation here at Holy Trinity at UNC opened up and got a call to come to Which is great and ironic and fun and full circle because my dad went to UNC and raised me a UNC Tar Heel fan. Born raised Carolina Blue, Carolina basketball, that's a whole other conversation about geeking out on sports and the ups and downs of that.

So yeah, been here 14 years and it's been really fun and a great mutual friend Tripp grew up in North Carolina as well. And one of his brother's best friends is a Lutheran pastor colleague of mine right down the road from me. And so when Tripp moved back to North Carolina, introduced Tripp and I, and we were drinking a beer and started talking about Star Wars. And then we kind of like that movie, Stepbrothers, kind of looked at each other and said, did we just become best friends? I think we just became best friends. ⁓

Alexis Rice (15:46)
You

Will Rose (15:51)
And then we had some grant money to go deeper into faith and science. And Tripp had just moved to the area and was looking for a job. And I said, hey, you do work in this. You've got a great podcast. Let's do a faith and science event and workshop. And so that kind of opened the door for podcasting and doing faith and science work and going a little bit deeper with people in the area and that kind of thing.

That's kind of my context. Being an ELCA pastor for 26 years, I'm going on my second sabbatical this summer. Part of that's gonna be travel and chasing waves and pleasure reading and that kind of stuff. But also I have a number of faith and science books that I hope to crack open and look into, especially as we get closer to beer camp and those kinds of things.

Alexis Rice (16:30)
that's great. In part one of this faith and science series that we're doing, we spoke with Janet Kellogg-Ray, who is the author of Fish with Feet Human Evolution in the Image of God. And one of the questions that I asked her is how can churches be more involved in these conversations? Because a lot of churches that are more evangelical are really busy teaching.

Will Rose (16:40)
Nice.

Alexis Rice (16:50)
faith and science from a creationist, young earth theory, apologetic standpoint. it's very active part of the curriculum. And I do wonder if a lot of other church spaces outside of that, are aware of that, like, how much emphasis is put on faith and science. Do you feel like in a lot of the more mainline traditions that you've been a part of or that, you people that you know, that it's just kind of a given that

faith and science

Will Rose (17:17)
in the church I grew up in in never heard that there was a conflict between faith and science. We were ELCA congregation. I went through confirmation with youth group. was don't know if I listened to intently to those conversations. I was just kind of a punk skater surf kid who probably, you know, in the corner and cutting up. but, you know, when I got a little older in high school and then in college.

It wasn't a conversation of like, you have to choose one or the other. But I do remember conversations of like, how do you faithfully read the Bible and that sacred text in a modern scientific world post Einstein? How do we interpret these texts, read these revere them see them as God-inspired and guiding and leading our faith and also being able to look at the world?

from a scientific point of view and not see that there's a conflict. Doesn't mean there's not tension. Doesn't mean that you can't go into the differences in how people in Genesis or the generations that wrote the scriptures, that are in scripture, how they saw the world and how we see the world now and what's evolved and those kinds of things. for me, I was never presented to me that I had issues. Now, I eventually began working with youth groups and high schoolers and those kinds of things. Our own youth group,

that were in my church, but also their friends, I did bump up against like, hey, wait, this church says this, or I'm seeing this, or that you have to choose. You have to read the Bible this way. How come six days? I'm hearing evolution taught in schools. Why is that different? What's going on here? And so for me, I was never called to be a scientist, but I was always curious about the questions and how to entertain those questions, accept those questions, not question, shame these youth or young adults.

to say, wait, wait, you can't ask those questions. How dare you ask that question to me? Because I was scared and nervous to not answer it, but just say like, hey, very good question. Great question. Cool. Let's explore that together. There's a lot of resources out there. what's out kind of been my posture and the way we've done it and a lot of people colleagues of mine in the I do know that there's ways that other churches have handled that over the years, even since like Luther and Galileo and the Catholic Church. And there's a long history of tension between

how to read the scripture and who's telling the story or not, who's in control.

Alexis Rice (19:21)
I even think when you bring up like Luther in Galileo, like Galileo was a Christian, and a scientist. find it really interesting that fundamentalist churches give, a lot of Christians this binary that you're in or you're out. And so once you start deciding like, well, I think that, evolution is scientifically sound. That probably means that we did not all come from Adam and Eve.

The problem with that is that a lot of fundamentalist churches have set up people to not be included anymore. They feel like they're not allowed to be in our Christian faith. So I think that's partly why millions of people have walked away. A huge piece of this is the science piece, well, you told me I can't be a Christian.

it's not even that, an atheist came by and said well, you can't be a scientist and a Christian. that's not where that comes from. It's actually from the fundamentalist spaces that say you have to be in or out. But there are so many other ways that other churches outside of evangelical fundamentalism view this, correct? Even with the Catholic traditions.

Will Rose (20:20)
Yeah, yeah. yeah, it's not like Catholic Church, other churches, traditions, you know, have the when it comes to how we But I the last hundred years or so, there's been more of an openness to say like, and that's what surprised me when I started going deeper in the faith and science, I mean,

Granted, in our culture today, it's like you set up this dichotomy of the two extremes, battling it out to the end, and you're to have a winner in the ring. fundamentalist Christianity and materialistic atheist that they're going to go at it you're going to have a winner. But wait, there's a lot of people on the spectrum in between all that who are asking great questions and have written great books. And there's a lot of scientists who are people of faith and a lot of people of who believe and trust and are

mainstream science. And so when you set up the dichotomy of you have to choose one or the other, most of the time, people who are living the postmodern world world post Einstein, they're gonna be like, that's an easy decision. I'm choosing science. That's just, know, fairy tales versus science. gonna choose think that's too easy of a black and white kind of option because

I think even the people who were authors of Genesis didn't necessarily intended to be a science book. They are articulating how they understand the world and one another and who this God that they are encountering to be, not necessarily a literal reading of these words, because they're different sources embedded within the Hebrew texts and stuff. So it's not like the King James English version of the Bible just popped out of the clouds one day and landed on our lap and we have to read it, the red letters of Jesus, literally.

or the Old Testament literally, a whole lot of biblical scholarship wrapped up in all that. And so I think what also some pastors and church leaders fear is that if they don't have the exact answer, they can't wrap their head around or don't understand it, they get defensive or they say, well, no, don't bring that to me. You you're just falling away from your faith rather than just being kind of honest with themselves like, hey, good question, I don't know.

I don't know is a good answer to a question to somebody and say that humility, intellectual humility to say really good. And what I'll share with other colleagues, there have been Lutheran colleagues of mine who say, Will, it's easy for you to engage faith in science at Holy Trinity because you're right there university and you have evolutionary biologists and particle physicists and doctors and nurses your congregation. But I'm yeah, that's true. A member of my church.

works at CERN half the year smashes particles together and was on the Higgs boson team and all that stuff. So, Al has been a fabulous resource in terms of how understand or dialogue with science. But I guarantee you, if you're in rural North Carolina, perhaps you have a chemistry teacher and middle school teacher congregation. Perhaps you have a dentist. Perhaps you have someone an engineer and directs and uses math to

create good steady flow of traffic on roads a civic engineer. So they're using science and math in their daily lives on vocations. So perhaps you can have a conversation with them, bring them into youth group, bring them as a witness to say like, yeah, they may not have their PhD in quantum physics, but teach middle schoolers. So why did they teach that? What gave them wonder, awe, and curiosity around that subject and they still attend church?

How do they see God through that lens and experience God through that and share that with others? That then gives permission to the middle schooler, the teenager, the elementary age kid. Maybe she's thinking of being a scientist one day and she hears somebody in her congregation say, you know, I'm a person of faith and a chemist. They're like, cool, I can do that too. That gives me permission to go down that road as well.

Alexis Rice (23:48)
Okay, something that I really liked that you just talked about is, sorry, I know you're blowing some people's minds right now because of the way that you talked about Genesis, Like you just kind of introduced all this complexity into it that some people may or may not be aware of you know, the way it was written thinking about the intention and, you know, maybe the authors didn't think about it this way.

From theology beer camp buddy, Pete Enns, who was at Theology Beer Camp in 2022,

He's written the book, The Sin of Certainty, and he's also talked about on Bible for Normal People that there's two creation stories in I've mentioned that in comments, and then some people are saying, what are you reading, Satan's Bible? And it's like, ⁓ And that comment comes from the fact that I have heard from a lot of evangelical pastors, really, that

Will Rose (24:27)
Oof.

Alexis Rice (24:36)
simplicity is easier it's harder to engage yourself with your congregation in all these complexities. You don't seem to pastor like that. So what advice do you have for pastors who feel trapped sometimes a little bit by the simplicity and the certainty that they feel like they're supposed to be giving to their congregation and who want to actually try to present more nuance?

Will Rose (25:03)
Yeah, that's good. I think there's a temptation when you're the leader or pastor or shepherding a congregation that you have to be all things an expert in everything. And I think ⁓ part of my pastoral approach to ministering and shepherding this congregation is to accept what I'm good at and then refer to other people of those areas that I'm not good at. So I'm not a trained...

psychiatrist. So yeah, I can walk with people and give some pastoral care and give advice and pray with people, but I'm trauma therapist. So I'm going to find them a good resource and a person to help them go deeper into what they need. And so I think you could do that with all areas, not just with counseling, but biblical scholarship. Yeah, I'm, I'm been a pastor for 26 years and went to seminary and, I can't read original Hebrew and Greek. I took those classes in seminary, but if you plopped,

Hebrew and Greek in front of me right now. I was like, okay, I need to refresh my memory. But there are some great Hebrew and Greek scholars out there that you can point to and give resources to help people go deeper if they want to go there. And I think you just open the door and invite people to go deeper into their faith. And for some people, if they want to keep things not read all the hermeneutical, theological, text criticism books about the Bible, they'd rather just kind of have a 3rd

Alexis Rice (25:59)
Mm-hmm.

Will Rose (26:15)
grade Sunday school reading of scripture, then cool, stay there, but then also don't be judgy towards other people who want to go deeper and geek out on those kinds of things. and it can be intimidating. Like I remember Phyllis Tickle at one point you wrote The Great Emergence.

Alexis Rice (26:28)
Yes, I've heard that whole podcast. Yes, thank you. It was awesome.

Will Rose (26:30)
Yeah, yeah,

yeah. She was a keynoter at one of our convocations here in the Carolina Synod. And she said, you know, think seminarians need to take physics classes in seminary and understand science. You know, it's not that we have to have a PhD in quantum mechanics, but at least wrap our heads around a little bit about kind of how the world operates and scientific understanding that way we can use

and understand the language the world is using when it comes to those things. But also, again, that that, there's deeper things out there and I don't feel like the pressure that I have to understand and give a concrete answer for every single question that's thrown my way. We Holy Trinity, have a campus ministry and Pastor Katie and I a pastor in the hot seat.

a couple of times this past semester where people just ask questions wherever they have. And yeah, the students could have been there all night long. We had to cut it off. We're like, all right, we've been here for a couple of hours. but they have questions and there are questions that we're like, yep, that's a good one. I'm have to go deeper on that. I'm gonna have to investigate that one. Let me see what's out there. But there's some I've like, oh, I've heard that before. And this probably a healthy approach to that question. And here's some ways that I've experienced it or answered it in different seasons and stages of my life. 30 year old seminary will.

may have answered a little different than 53 year old Will who's getting ready to go on sabbatical. ways you can approach those questions. And I think having an openness to that for others they feel safe, that they can ask whatever question they have is a good way to go. simple is okay. Simplicity, simple life, contemplative life. We live in a crazy world. You can't be an expert in everything, but don't be afraid to go deep with people.

wherever they are.

Alexis Rice (28:06)
I think what I'll take from that is you've been using the phrase go deep and where that hits me is sometimes that was phrased to me as doubting. So, you know, for example, like in faith and science, well, I'm not sure if Adam and Eve are real or talking snake was real. I go to school and I hear about evolution and I don't understand how this can,

jive together, I don't get it. And it is starting that conversation even when you're quite It's like, well, do you believe the power of God? So it's like this certainty of you are supposed to have this wonder and curiosity and respect for God. And just like, we don't know how it happened, but that's how it happened. And this didn't happen. And if you feel like that, then

Maybe you're doubting, maybe you're not on fire for God. And so there's just these seeds really early that create this binary that I feel like the more I talk to mainline pastors all around the United States and around the world, that's just not the way that you set people up to live in their

Will Rose (29:01)
Right.

yeah, I think you're onto something there. And I comes along with that is this kind of feeling shame Like you said, a fear of if it's a house of cards, you pull one thing away, it's all going to come crumbling down. And if we put God as like God of the gaps in these kinds of mysteries, and if we start answering mysteries, then

Alexis Rice (29:16)
Yeah.

Will Rose (29:21)
we're just gonna push the way. But what I've learned in hearing and listening to scientists is that they are always answering questions. They're not gonna answer everything. There's this kind of hubris along with kind of materialistic scientists as well who think like, science is gonna answer all questions. But there's plenty of scientists like, nope, we're just gonna have more. You answer one, they're gonna have 20 more questions. and so if you keep putting God in the gaps and you are gonna push God out of way, but if you...

open to like God is a part of all this draws me deeper into the mystery of the universe moral arc to the universe that's behind it yeah, there's an openness and of who I the universe, the fabric of the universe growing, evolving, shifting,

If that's how the universe operates, and I think our faith could be like that too, give people permission can be like that with our faith too. And we don't have to fear or feel shameful that you have some questions and doubts, because that's eventually going to lead to an openness of learning and curiosity. I had toddlers, I've had toddlers, I have toddlers in the church. Like the why, why? Ooh, exploring, oh, that was cool. Why, why? I mean, and then a little bit later on in churches, we like stop asking why, it's just, that's the way it is. God is that way.

You're just shutting down ways in which people experience the world. And eventually, I think that's just problematic and traumatic for people in terms of how their faith operates that way.

part of this podcast, Your Matter Matters, is a pastoral approach to share with people that they're not alone in these questions. Whatever questions you have, I guarantee you are not the first or the last person to ask that question. And there's people who have asked it before you, will ask it after you. And there's some really kind of neat people that have wrestled with that question and have some cool approaches to that question that can help you your head and heart around that as well. part of it is giving people permission that

you can ask those questions, but also let them know they're not alone in those questions and that perhaps they could gather in small groups to ask together and then feed off one another about what sparks wonder, awe and curiosity in their lives. And who knows? just remember sitting around the table with some faith and science projects that we were doing at the very beginning with our grant money. And we sat some students around tables and college students. And we were like, we just want to know your questions and don't worry.

This is not a bait and switch. We're not gonna say, wrong. How dare you ask that? Like we are not gonna respond. We're not gonna answer them tonight. We're not gonna tackle them. We just want to know what are your honest questions? And one of the students, somebody asked maybe about the scale of the universe and how could God fit into a universe that big and Genesis and they were wrestling with that. And I just remember Robert saying, I thought I was the only one. And I turned and looked at him and I was like, what did you say?

Alexis Rice (31:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Will Rose (31:56)
He goes, I thought I was the only one who wrestled with that. I was like, no, no, no, no. And he didn't know he was sitting on his left side. The other side of him was a member of our church who was getting astrophysics and studying the Big Bang. And I was like, well, here's Matthew. He's studying this and he's a person of faith. mean he doesn't have doubts. Doesn't mean he doesn't wrestle with things. And there's some things in the creeds that he hasn't like really wrapped his head and heart around

but he's here and he's open to listening and exploring. you could just see a weight lifted off of Robert's shoulders. Like, ah, I'm not alone. Ah, I don't have to hold that by myself. I don't have to choose. And so that release of the tension, you can just visibly see it in his face. And then, you know, it doesn't mean that life is going to be live happily ever after, but at least he knows he has a space where he can gather to wrestle with those things, ask those questions and then.

exploring because there's some really cool people who have approached that question in a healthy way.

Alexis Rice (32:52)
on your Matter Matters, what are the questions and one of the episodes that people might be able to expect like to dive in.

Will Rose (32:59)
Yeah, yeah. Pastor Thomas Johnson and I put this together with the help of our friends from Systematic Egalities, Joshua Noel. I was like, hey, our Synod has Casey Peeler fund where can get grant money to do innovative projects within your congregation. And so Thomas, we both serve on the steering committee for the Lutheran Alliance for Faith, Science and Technology. And he was like, hey, you've done work with faith and science. What if we did a podcast? I was like,

I don't know if the world needs another podcast. I don't need another podcast. But then as more I started thinking about it, I was like, you know, we have some pretty cool friends and we've read some pretty cool books and there's some really good resources. Why don't we create a limited series where, congregations and small groups or, faith communities can, can use it as a pod study and a curriculum to go, to go deeper. So we decided we would do seven episodes. One was kind of introduction of why we're doing this.

The last episode is a wrap-up of what we learned, what we grew, those kinds of things. And then we lifted up the top five questions that we continuously hear when it comes to faith and science, like kind of the top five. the five was, of course, evolution and Genesis. Another one on cosmology and astro-theology, astrobiology, not only the scale of universe and stars and planets and black holes, but what if we discovered life out there? What if aliens come tomorrow?

How will that shift how we understand the world and our worldview and how we see humans we understand God. So Dr. Ted Peters, a theologian, has done a lot of work in that over the since 1980s, 70s. Tripp's talked with him before a number of He was wonderful. That's my The thing I geek out the most about is cosmology. As a big Star Wars fan, sci-fi fan, big a cosmology nerd.

that was fun. And think with the technology piece, we leaned into AI knowing might not have been exact 5 10, 15, 20 years ago, but we definitely were wrestling use technology and that affect how we treat ourselves, view ourselves and view one another. So technology has always been around and what tools are we using for a benefit or

downfall of mankind. So AI is latest one of that. So we lift up AI. Then of course you always hear the question of what about the problem of pain and suffering? How could loving God, allow pain and suffering in the world? And so while it's not like specifically a scientific question, it is one of the top questions whenever we do a pastor in the hot seat, that always comes up. so it does relate to science because, if there is a God, why is this? If there is no God, okay, it's just tooth and nail and evolutionary

progression, whatever you want to frame it and turn survival of the fittest kind of stuff. But how does that mix with our philosophy, morality, theology? And then we thought it'd be important to have a conversation around the health of, the science of healthcare that, yeah, we're coming off a global pandemic. There's a lot of conversations around funding and defunding of

research and medicines and cancer research. And so we need to have a conversation about how we understand the science healthcare.

Alexis Rice (35:41)
Absolutely.

Will Rose (35:47)
If looking at the stars was the original science question of like, oh, what's my place in the universe? What are all those stars up there? And someone reciting Psalm 8, what are you mindful of me in this vast universe when I consider the heavens? Then healthcare is right there because our loved ones are sick. How are we going to take care of them? We need to do some research and think what's the best love and serve our neighbor and take care of them? And what kind of medicine should we use? That's the experimentation of what.

helpful or non-helpful medicine. Interesting enough, when I look at the downloads though, that one is the least downloaded. And I'm wondering if it's just people go towards evolution, cosmology, AI, but in terms of healthcare, I don't want to that conversation. I have that all the time. We just came out of global pandemic. I don't know if I want to hear those stories again. I'm done with that. But I think it's just as important of how we love our neighbor when it comes to healthcare as the others. So those are the top five questions that we explored, knowing that

They're not the only questions. We're not the first or last person to ask them. We're not breaking any new ground. what we are hoping is that people hear us model how to have healthy conversations with these questions rather than a YouTube video of two people debating and one person owning the other person. look at those comments. Guess who won that boxing match? We're like, nope, that's not what we're doing. So it's really a pastoral approach with these questions and modeling for others.

possible ways to have these conversations. maybe we'll do a season two There's definitely been people who are like, what about human consciousness? What about this? What about that? I'm like, cool, we'll talk about that in season two, whenever we get around to it.

Alexis Rice (37:15)
In season two. Yeah,

when you talk about healthcare, I was talking about this Dr. Ray, I think it's important, especially politicians, democratic politicians right now, people who are in charge of potentially making our government post this administration.

better and restoring it to some sort of respect for experts, some sort of respect for science and for scientists and for professors I don't think they understand how incredibly embedded these beliefs are in evangelicalism in the United States. Like we were talking about

Will Rose (37:45)
Hmm. Hmm.

Alexis Rice (37:49)
70s, 80s, created our own alternative everything, Christian bookstores, Christian media, Christian radio, Christian movies Christian apologetics you know, defense.

Will Rose (37:59)
Christian music

festivals and X Games and extreme sports and all of those. Yeah, I remember that. I was youth pastor in the early 2000s. Yeah.

Alexis Rice (38:04)
Yes, totally. totally.

the whole thing, but the thing is, is that it was labeled Christian and then, you know, designed as if this is how all Christians believe, right? Which is what we're talking about right now. It's not true, but there has been always such a very anti-intellectualism into it, an anti-science, Bible literalist point of view that's also conservative, from the American standpoint, what that means to be conservative.

Will Rose (38:14)
Right.

Alexis Rice (38:30)
That is the model. believing science even, that's not even like a thing. So when I see people saying who are not Christians, to Christians just believe science, accept science. It's like, you don't understand. We've been trained our whole lives to reject it. she told me about how there are scripts from apologetics groups that are given to students for them to be challenging their

biology this is teaching against my faith, we've seen that with people's papers, these students, think that they're being persecuted for teaching science. And now this administration has capitalized on that, weaponized our faith, and used that as power and control to now say, if you are an expert in this field,

you are not to be believed. your opinions are just as important as this pseudoscience person on the can look secretary of health right now, who is an environmental lawyer and not a trained scientist and is cutting funding left and right in our healthcare. you can also see when a lot of people who didn't take COVID vaccines,

they are evangelical fundamentalist Christians in this country. And it's because they were told don't believe science, don't trust. So it's easy for people who have already not been believing science like our whole lives to just continue in that. That is not getting through. And they only trust these sources from within their own ecosystem. I know you know all

do we break through that? Like, I got out of that mindset, but it took many, many years to believe I wasn't doing anything wrong as a Christian. I think unfortunately, like a lot of people, really are trying to be good Christians, good people. They don't want to fall away from their faith, but they're told all these things over here are dangerous. So how do you break through to them in a pastoral way to say, hey, faith and science,

can coexist, whether that's healthcare, whether that's learning about evolution, whether that's teaching about the Big Bang, whether believing that the Bible and Genesis may or may not be literal, that does not have to tell you that you can be a Christian.

Will Rose (40:21)
Mm.

what comes to mind is that famous TED danger of the single story. My wife shows it in her classroom to students all the time, whether you see someone who is of a different color than you and you immediately think of like, you just have one story for that person and how you see that person, or you see a scientist, you immediately think, oh, they must be this way. Oh, I'm a pastor who navigates.

kind of geek culture and comic cons. And as soon as somebody hears I'm a pastor, they immediately think, you must be one of those fundamentalist pastors who thinks, you know, I must be going to hell because I had sex before I got married. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. the danger of the single story. I'm not that pastor. I'm not that guy. And then they hear, you also like Star Wars. You like science. You also surf. Wait a minute, that's not how I understand pastors. I like, yeah, because not all pastors are the exact same way kind of thing. And so I think having that mindset as you go into these spaces to say,

the danger of the single story of seeing someone as stereotype that you presented them to be or presented to you. Why not listen to the person's story? It boils down to relationships and listening to the other they are and what they're interested in and what they geek out on and why they entered into their vocation and why they choose to pay the bills that way. And what is it that gives them hope in the world and what keeps them up at night listening to their story and who they understand to be. That's the way you break down.

this kind of danger of the single story. I think that's what this administration is doing is weaponizing certain groups people and things to say like, you know, if you think that way, must be fake news or you're not on our team and they're just pushing people away so that they can commodify and align their own, you know, or bank accounts. And there are definitely scientists here at UNC and my congregation have had funds cut the trust in their institution of

what they work in or research they do has been eroded away. And part of me wants to be the club. The church has been this way for a good 20 years, or at least as long as I've been a pastor, Like the erosion of institutional loyalty and trust has been withering away for a long time and now universities and scientists are lumped into that as well. So I now see some neat team together and doctors and yeah, team doctors.

Alexis Rice (42:33)
And doctors too, right? So wild.

Will Rose (42:37)
up and saying, well, we need to get together and break down some stereotypes and get back to the basics of communicating well who we are and what we're important. And we are seeing our congregation, some students and grad students and young families and professionals starting to come back to church. we get visitors every Sunday who are like, you know, there's probably a different narrative out there. There's something different. And it seems like you guys have a different one.

there's something more out we need to lean into explore that a little bit more. It's really, yeah, come on, gather at the table. So it's a wide table let's gather around it and have kind of what we're trying to do with the podcast too. let that be another means by which and a resource to open up conversations to go these episodes, we don't give the final answer. If you're gonna listen to it thinking, ⁓ I'm gonna have that question answered from now on out and I'm gonna listen to the...

episode on problem of pain and job. And yeah, just like the book of Job, we don't answer the question. Just like the book that we're talking about. It does not answer the question of pain and suffering. But what it does do is a to go deeper and enter into relationships and have conversations.

Alexis Rice (43:43)
So we know what it means to be a Christian from the Christian nationalist point of view because we see it in our faces every single day. They're gonna be

reading the Bible, from cover to cover you know, in the middle of Washington, DC to show their Christian faith and, you know, how this is a Christian nation that should adhere to Christian values, which are apparently the 10 commandments in schools and, erasing queer people and taking away women's rights. taking immigrants and just all the things.

Can you please tell me what you think it means to be a Christian?

Will Rose (44:18)
Hmm. Yeah, that's so good. I'm still learning that. I think in terms teenager will, seminary will, young pastor will, young parent will to now like 10 years from retirement will maybe, I'm in a different place than I was in all those kinds of seasons of life. But for me, that's the question. Hopefully I'm waking up every morning and asking, what does it mean to be a Christian? What does it mean to follow Jesus? And for me now is looking,

at Jesus himself and how he postured himself in the world letting that be my example and guide to how I posture myself in the world. Now, in terms of how he operated, how he taught, how he loved, who he hung out with, that's what I'm exploring and letting that guide who I hang out with and how I love and how I posture myself in the world.

And so I see that as all the stuff you listed is opposite of how Jesus postured himself in the world. And for me, for the life of me, it's hard to see how people have that cognitive dissonance or don't see that. you know, don't throw the word around lightly, but in terms of kind of this kind of cult or like this fear or this way of operating of us versus them,

maybe that's more seductive and intriguing to folks than it is Jesus who rolled with the marginalized and ate dinner at tax collectors houses and washed people's feet. So that's for it means to be a Christian. I know Christian, that word thrown out there, you never know what people are gonna think of when you use that

there's a lot of pretext and a lot of coaching when people...

ask not just if you're a Christian, but what kind of Christian are you? I'm not just a pastor, but what kind of pastor are you? You're a pastor of a church, what kind of church? So there's a lot of stuff that goes along with that and I totally understand it. But for me, that's kind of where I am. And I think Young Will might've been like in really wanted to have all the answers so that I could give really cool sermons and give a bunch of youth answers to help their daily lives. But as I've gotten older, as I've...

lived and experienced the world, I'm more curious about what questions people have than I am trying to give them an answer. So if they come to me with a question, I'm like, cool, I'm really curious. What is it that you are really wondering and curious about? rather than jump into an answer, know, before I give them Jesus as the answer, I really need to understand what their question is first. And so how operate and pastor. And I've had to learn, I've not always been this way. I've evolved.

Along the way, I'm still learning and growing exploring, but that's why I like spaces like Theology Beer Camp and other spaces where it gives that kind of creativity at the last beer camp. I helped the panel on the movie Sinners and one of the black theologians on the panel talked about Theology Beer Camp being kind of a hush safe space, a juke joint to gather and do some jazz and do some

blues and do some exploring. And I thought that was really neat image to think about what's happened at Theology Beer Camp. But also what I tell people, there's a lot of spaces and churches who are doing the same stuff that is in Theology Beer Camp. a little frustrated post-COVID when there's a ton of books and publicity and articles about churches behaving badly and burning masks and

Alexis Rice (47:15)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Will Rose (47:25)
being anti-vax and anti-science and they were being upheld as, what crazy Christians are doing. But I'm like, dude, on Franklin Street, have five churches, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, ourselves Lutheran, who gathered every week and listened to the director of emergency medicine at UNC to listen to what's happening with the virus.

Alexis Rice (47:27)
Yep.

Will Rose (47:47)
and what can we do to help take care of our communities? How soon is the vaccine gonna come out? What can we expect about the vaccine? What are the downfalls and the benefits that we're listening to them every week and navigating? There's not one article about how these churches were working together have that. And that's a little on us. We're probably like, we're too busy doing other things than to promote ourselves. it grieves me that not more people know.

how we responded to COVID in this kind of positive way, I think took care of our congregations. It's not like we had to believe the same thing about the creeds or even women in everything we understand Trinity or even do worship the same way every Sunday morning. But we did come together and say, how do we take care of the people that are entrusted to us in our communities? And I think we did damn good job. learned along the way, we were watching

worked on live action right in front of us. And they were learning too. So like, well, why did they say one thing one week and another thing another? Because they're learning. That's how science works. You have to evolve and learn. And so we shouldn't be afraid see ourselves learning and growing. And my church isn't perfect and we're still learning and growing too. We got a lot of growing edges, but

Alexis Rice (48:43)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. No.

Will Rose (48:53)
There are communities that are open to have these conversations and to have open doors and not, like you said at the beginning of the podcast, not check their brain and heart at the door learn and grow and ask questions.

Alexis Rice (49:04)
Yeah, and it's my continual call to the media, if anybody's in media. I really do hope that mainstream and progressive media spaces continue to highlight progressive pastors, progressive churches, also politicians to be speaking to progressive pastors. I think it's so essential because progressive pastors know things that need to be lifted, elevated. I think you guys are the superpower that we need right now, but we also need your voice amplified. And we need the...

coordination and politicians on that too. Pastor Will, as we close today, there are a lot of people who listen to this podcast who haven't been to church in a really long time. And that could be for reasons that we just talked about. It might be the reason of science, feeling like they weren't allowed to bring their scientific mind to their specific local church. So I was wondering if you could pray over them now.

Will Rose (49:34)
Yes.

Absolutely, let us pray. Gracious, loving Lord, we give you thanks for your presence in our lives, wherever we are in our stage or season of faith, doubt or no faith or curiosity or confusion. You walk with us every step of the way in this world that is so wonderful and so mysterious and so amazing and often scary. We pray that you will continue to

Open up minds and hearts to understand you, to understand our world, to understand our that we can experience you and experience relationships that you would have us experience with one another in community, in friendship, in love, and in hope. We pray for our scientists. We pray for our researchers who are geeking out on the smallest molecule or the largest moon.

hovering around Jupiter. We pray that you will open their hearts and minds to awe wonder and curiosity that they may reveal your love and your expansive grace to all people. Thank you for Alexis and her work in this podcast. We pray that you will sustain us and guide us that we may fight the good fight of faith, but open our hearts and minds and tables to those who are different from us that we can learn and grow to become the people that you call us to be.

is the name of the crucified and risen Christ that we pray. Amen.

Alexis Rice (51:12)
Amen. Pastor Will Rose, thank you for being on the sacred slope today.

Will Rose (51:16)
⁓ my pleasure, my joy.

Alexis Rice (51:18)
and I have one final question for you. What do you like to do for fun?

Will Rose (51:20)
I'm ready.

⁓ Man, there's so many things I like to do for fun. I have too many hobbies. Let's see up there. Surfing is top. even being a couple hours from the beach. I still check the waves every day on wave cams. today after this, I'm heading down to beach to help with my mom a little bit and get in the water and surf. So that's my number one. Love comic books. I love reading. I love yoga. I love swimming. Love traveling with family, new experiences. My wife and I geek out on

Alexis Rice (51:26)
Yes!

Will Rose (51:48)
space and cosmos and over the sabbatical this summer we're hopefully going to go to Spain to see a total eclipse in Spain on our anniversary that's happening to be on August 12th our anniversary in Spain and that's what we're hoping that we're going to be able to do so that's that's our plan yeah

Alexis Rice (52:02)
You wanna know what's wild about that? That

is literally Janet on part one of this series is also going to Spain for that eclipse. So I am gonna put you guys together.

Will Rose (52:12)
Yes,

would be rad. I love humor. I love hanging out with friends. we have a new Star Wars movie coming wait for that. yeah, that's what I like to do for fun. I like having fun. So yeah, I like having fun. Yes, we will. Mm-hmm. You got it. You too.

Alexis Rice (52:22)
I like having fun too and we will have fun having a beer together at Theology Beer Camp. Thank you so much Pastor Will, God bless you.

Alexis Rice (52:29)
Thank you for joining us today on The Sacred Slope. If you'd like to nominate a pastor, priest, or clergy member anywhere in the world, send me an email at Alexis @ thesacredslope.com. Music was by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin, and Sean Spence. May the fruit of the spirit guide you this week. I'm Alexis Rice. Go in peace, friends.