11. Seth A. Cain (Non-Denominational) - Deconstructing While Leading

11. Seth A. Cain (Non-Denominational) - Deconstructing While Leading

In this raw conversation, Alexis Rice sits down with Seth A. Cain - a former non-denominational lead pastor (14+ years) whose ministry came to a breaking point when he was asked to resign after being open to performing a same-sex wedding.

Before we begin: to the pastors who are deconstructing - especially in American non-denominational spaces - I see you. When a pastor deconstructs, it’s not only grief. It can be livelihood on the line: reputation, housing, healthcare, decades of relationships, and the identity you built your life around.

The Sacred Slope is listened to in 50+ countries because Christianity doesn’t belong to one nation, one political party, or one expression. This is a space for the curious, the deconstructing, and the reconstructing - where LGBTQ+ inclusion is safe, women in leadership are affirmed, and we believe God loves all people with dignity and worth.

💬 In this episode:
• How Seth was “preaching love and acceptance” without being direct — until a real-life moment demanded integrity
• The phone call that changed everything: “Just pencil me in and I’ll figure out the rest”
• The cost of saying yes - and the heartbreak of “all are welcome” with a no-fly zone
• “Transcend and include,” deconstruction in real time, and why certainty can feel like “pillars in quicksand”
• A closing prayer for anyone who feels unseen, isolated, or rejected by church spaces

👤 About Our Guest
Seth A. Cain is a writer, speaker, and former pastor. “Everything is like Seth Andrew Cain,” including Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook. (@sethandrewcain)

🔗 Links & Resources (Books + Seth Online)

Seth links (all platforms):
 https://linktr.ee/sethacain

“But How’d You Get There?” (YouTube channel / playlist):
 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCio30AwkmXzEwhAYoDtUKYA

To Give the Universe a Hug (book):
 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FMNRGBDC

Life Is Beautiful (book):
 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WH56B9F

#Christianity #deconstruction #OpenAndAffirming #MentalHealth #ProgressiveChristianity #ProgressiveClergy #ChurchHurt #Exvangelical #LGBTQ #WomenInMinistry

Transcript

Alexis (00:00)
can you walk us through the story what led to you getting let go from being a pastor for all these years?

Seth (00:07)
have deconstructed years ago, cause I was forced to, being in that role, you have to say something. And so the past several years have been more like, how do I put this back together? So I was in a place of being affirming for several years, but also in an institution and an area.

Even though Orlando, which is the area I'm in, is affirming, the outsides of Orlando are not as much. so the church that I was at, the institution was not. So I'm not preaching on this directly. I'm preaching love and acceptance without being direct. being kind of coming at it from different angles. I haven't done any weddings. I know that that would be a big no-no for

the institution. And then there's some dear missionary friends of mine and their daughter came out a couple of years ago. She got engaged last year and then they called me were a family that I had a lot of conversations with and gave them resources. Like, like she's fine. Like she's okay. Like support her, love her.

Alexis (01:11)
Yeah.

Seth (01:12)
and they were conservative Christian type people and that was a struggle for them. They love their daughter. where do we set this within our faith as we currently understand it? they knew I loved and supported them. And so she had reached out and was like, Hey, ⁓ I don't know if you saw she's getting married and, ⁓ we were hoping you would do the wedding. And I was like, she goes, I know this is a big ask. I know where you're at. I know where the church is at

you say no, it's okay, we understand it, we still love you, but you're the person that we would want to do this. And I was like, let me pray about that a little, let me think about that, cause that literally is an ask to potentially put my job on the line. And then as she talked, she was going, you know, we have just lived with so much rejection from our Christian friends since.

our daughter came out. If you say no, we know you love us, but we're building a callous towards some of the hurt and rejection. And I could just hear this pain in her voice. And by the time she got done talking, I was like, you know what? Just, just pencil me in and I'll, I'll figure out the rest, you know, like

I don't know how you could hear a mother's heart breaking and see that how they have it, what they've experienced from church people, from the Christian communities that they're connected with that loved and supported them until what you cross this, this is the line of all the dumb things. That's going to be the line. Like how, how is this still a conversation is my thing.

I just, was so brokenhearted by what this woman had said on the phone. I just was like, put me in and I'll sort through it. I went to our staff and my staff was fantastic. we talked about it and full, you know, here's the situation. What's your guy's thoughts, you know, and just to kind of throw it out there, all of my staff was on board. So I went to our leadership.

And I said, here's where we're at. Here's my understanding of scripture. Here's where my heart is at. it would be difficult for me to not do this. I just need to know how you guys would like to move forward. And, um, their response was two weeks later, here's a resignation letter. So, um, it's, it's just, it's wild and sad and, know, I know this is.

the transcend and include part that so sucks. I believe that those guys in their heart are pretty good dudes. several of them have looked out for me and taken care of me for several years. Um, it was hard. was a difficult comfort. mean, there was a lot of tears shed in that process. but at end of the weren't willing to budge where they were at. And I was just going guys,

I just can't do this anymore. so many churches say all are welcome. I'm like, okay, I don't buy that. And my heart is to welcome all.

Alexis Rice (04:34)
Welcome to the Sacred Slope, where the slippery slope meets sacred ground. I'm Alexis Rice. We are now listened to in over 50 countries because Christianity does not belong to one nation, one political party, one person, one denomination, or one expression. There are around 2 billion Christians across more than 45,000 denominations worldwide. That means no one group owns the corner on what it means to follow Jesus.

The sacred slope is a space for people who are curious, for people who are deconstructing, for people who still care deeply about Jesus but are wrestling with what they were handed. before we begin this conversation, I want to say something directly to pastors. If you are serving, especially in American non-denominational spaces, I know that for many of you, this has been an incredibly difficult decade.

A lot of you are carrying tension that most people will never see.

A lot of us were trained to put pastors on a pedestal, almost not see pastors as human, as struggling, even struggling with faith, deconstructing.

You're holding congregations together in extreme polarized times. You're navigating theology, politics, social media, institutional pressure, often all at once. And if you're deconstructing while you're leading, the stakes are even higher. When lay people deconstruct, there is grief. When pastors deconstruct, there can also be livelihood on the line. Reputation, housing, healthcare, decades of relationships. ⁓

the entire identity you built your life around. So if that's you, I see you. This conversation is raw, It's with Seth Cain who was a pastor for over 14 years. And I think many of you are going to feel less alone in it. Here at the Sacred Slope, this is the safe place for LGBTQ plus inclusion. Women in leadership are affirmed.

and we believe that God loves all human beings with dignity If you're curious, you're welcome to listen in. Let's explore our global, diverse, inclusive faith together today through the lens of Seth Cain.

Alexis (07:32)
Welcome back to the Sacred Slope, Today I am joined by Seth A. Cain Hi, Seth.

Seth (07:39)
Hello, good to be here.

Alexis (07:41)
Seth grew up as a pastor's kid in Florida and went on to earn his BA in religious studies from Johnson University in Knoxville, Tennessee, where he double majored in preaching and youth ministry. He then served for over 14 years as the lead pastor of a non-denominational church, non-denom represent. In central Florida, his ministry came to a breaking point when he was asked to resign after being open to performing a same-sex wedding.

Seth (08:00)
You

Alexis (08:10)
a that cost him his role, but opened the door to a new chapter of writing and speaking outside institutional church walls. He is also the author of To Give the Universe a an integrated and holistic this is his second book.

which wrestles with how to live a more expansive, honest, and healing spirituality. He is also the author of Life is Beautiful, written in 2023. I'm so excited today to dive into Seth's journey from childhood faith and pastoral ministry to the hard choices integrity, the call to deconstruct and reconstruct, what it means to imagine a Christian future rooted in love rather than exclusion. So Seth, welcome.

Seth (08:53)
⁓ so good to be here. I've enjoyed our pre conversations already.

so that that first book, The Life is Beautiful, So the subtitle, right? It's Life is Beautiful, which is kind of generic, but Life is Beautiful.

Unless you grew up with a traditional view of God in the world, then you might not think it is, but maybe this book will help.

It's so good.

Alexis (09:12)
It's so good!

could you please take us through background what led you into ministry?

Seth (09:20)
Yeah, I grew up in church, dad's a pastor in non-denominational world, ⁓ which we seem to have overlapped there. I saw the goods and bads of all that, you know, like that's the interesting thing about church, especially if you find a halfway decent one, like there's a lot of good there. The most love and frustration you will experience is from a church most of the time. So I watched my dad do all that and I knew

I don't know, probably since I was 11 or 12, I was like, I'm gonna be in ministry. It was just a question of like how and where and why and when and all these things. So I knew, know, Bible college was my next step after high school. And I went and did that at Johnson, which is a pretty good school. I don't know that I would fit in now maybe, but I know a lot of my peers are in similar spaces ⁓ from that place. ⁓ I went from there. I wasn't ready to go to full-time ministry after Johnson.

I started actually tour managing a band. did that for like five years, did electrical work in between before they got big enough to like pay me well. I went immediately after college, I spent three years in Africa and Mozambique, like with a buddy of mine doing kind of mission stuff.

Alexis (10:32)
Hmm.

Seth (10:35)
And then eventually I got to the point where I was like, okay, I think I'm ready to go back into the ministry full time. I literally went from, we ended a tour like in December, I started a new job at a small church in Charleston, South Carolina in like January. I got married in May. it was the whole

Alexis (10:56)
what did it feel like to grow up as a church kid?

Seth (10:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, I actually, I feel like I had very blessed experience in our church. My dad's church was conservative, but it wasn't like crazy. It was still very loving. it was, most of my friends were youth group kids. I mean, we experienced all this stuff, the purity culture. And I had the ring that my parents gave to me at Olive Garden. we watched, we...

You know what I remember about that moment is we were at Olive Garden, my parents had to talk with me. We had read like I kissed dating goodbye and all that stuff, which by the way, Joshua Harris is like, I'm out. He's like, I'm sorry now for all the kids. And we're like, yeah, that was rough. But also we're trying to be better. So we forgive you. You know, thanks, Josh. Josh, if you're listening, we still love you. ⁓ we were sitting at.

We went to Olive Garden. I have the clear memory of sitting at Olive Garden. My parents have the talk and it's awkward, uncomfortable. They give me the ring and I'm like, yeah, like, you know, purity for life or whatever. And then what I remember is about that night is I forgot my lasagna. I had leftover lasagna and I forgot it at the restaurant. was so mad. overall youth group.

For me, where we were at, we had a big youth group, a couple hundred kids, like even through high school. That was my primary peer group, like in all through middle school and high school. Like those were some of my good friends, you know? So from that aspect, I'm grateful for it, you know? Not much church trauma other than like, you know, just kind of the normal, you know, sex shame and, you know, dirty sinner stuff. other than that.

Alexis (12:31)
Hmm.

Seth (12:41)
It was pretty good. I mean.

Alexis (12:44)
If you would tell that to

a European, they would be like, what are you talking about?

Seth (12:49)
So

like, we don't, you do what? You, how? Why?

Alexis (12:54)
so interesting how we're all products of our cultures. That's what I find, especially within the Christian faith. A lot of it is where you were born, right? Like how you were in which denomination and in which way of expression that manifests for you. But that's not how everybody else celebrates their Christian faith, right?

Seth (12:57)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

No. Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

Alexis (13:17)
can you remember the moment where you were like, I want to spend my one wild and precious life devoted to ministry?

Seth (13:25)
So I think there was a, it was just kind of a low murmur that was always there for me. But I remember one more specific where I was like, that's, that's the sign. We were at a, do you know, C I Y Christ and Youth Convention? It's like, it's, it's a summer camp, like for a high school age and you go to a

Alexis (13:40)
I don't. me, tell us about it.

Seth (13:47)
college campus somewhere and churches from all over come and you get hyped about Jesus and saving the world and all these then you get really emotional about how terrible you are and then you commit your life to Christ and then you go into full-time ministry. that was

Alexis (14:01)
is

very recognizable. We just don't call it that particular camp, but absolutely, lot of listeners are going to recognize that experience.

Seth (14:09)
we had the emotional worship night and we went to our D groups, our discipleship groups to talk through the stuff. And I remember it was real emotional and whatever. We were on this college campus and I remember there was a lightning storm and I was walking by myself contemplating God and the universe and life at 15, 16 or whatever. And was like, I remember this beautiful lightning storm just going like, oh.

Yeah, I do ministry. This is what I need to do because whatever is orchestrating this is beyond what I can understand and I feel like I need to be helping people with that. I remember that moment going like, yeah, I got to do stuff for God. I already knew that. Now I have the sign to say, go forth.

Alexis (14:58)
I had to pause for a second because I have never about that out loud, but that same thing happened to me. In high school at church camp, and there was a storm at our houseboat trip, and we had to get off the boats in the middle of the night, and it was this storm, and I had felt the presence of God in this storm and feeling all.

Seth (15:04)
Really?

Yeah.

Alexis (15:21)
random, we are not alone. I can feel the safety and presence of God with me in the midst of my fear. And I felt something beautiful in that way too. So that's very cool. I love it. So I guess we're following our callings.

Seth (15:33)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There you go. There you

go. Trying

I could?

Alexis (15:40)
Yeah,

how do those early teachings that you had about Jesus, how did they really begin to unravel? Like how do they with the Jesus that you studied in scripture and that you fell in love with?

Seth (15:53)
think fortunately I was taught about a loving Jesus. I mean, I was taught I was a sinner obviously, but I was taught and modeled even by my father, like to love and care for people. Like I remember watching my dad pull a drunk guy out of the woods one time and put him in the car with us when I was like, you know, a preteen or something, because he wanted to help, help this guy.

And so like I would hear these teachings about Jesus, about loving others and taking care of, you know, the widows and the orphans, these things. And then I would see my dad doing a lot of that. And so that's, that's the Jesus I fell in love with. The issue for me has been seeing how other people have interpreted the love of Jesus towards others or the regulations they've put on the love of Jesus.

Anytime you put the but on the grace, It's are we doing? The irony I see, and even now, like, I love my parents to death. My mom has come a long way. My dad is, he is where he's at and he would do anything for anybody, but he's

in his beliefs from where he's been. it's interesting to me to see we don't agree on a lot of things these days. And it's almost like I'm doing the thing that I thought you taught me to do and now I'm trying to take it farther, but now it's become an

literally just trying to do the thing you exemplified for me, which

what I read now in the text, I think is the right thing to do. So it's kind of an interesting kind of back and forth with going, I thought this is what it was, but now you're not okay with me in this space. I don't understand that.

Alexis (17:40)
thinking about this lately, I'm curious to get your thoughts on You know how a lot of us did grow up, and I hear this a lot, especially in more of the non-denominational spaces that were pretty conservative, is that we did grow up in a loving manifestation. Yes, it was conservative, but it was a very loving manifestation of faith. And I know that there's this narrative that a lot of people who are not OK with what's been going on in the last

10 years ⁓ have moved out of these spaces. But do you think maybe we didn't move that they moved? And that's what's been jarring? Maybe that's what's causing

Seth (18:17)
Yeah.

think the reality is there's just too much and we see too much and we hear too much because the truth is we moved a couple years, six, seven years ago, we bought property and moved out to the country and this town is wonderful. I love it. It drives me crazy all at the same time. When you drive, we have one light in our town. I'll get to the point here in a second. We have one light in our town.

When you're coming up to our town, people put up at a palm tree, Trump Town USA. Like that's what I drive by on a regular basis. There's a pasture with cows in it that I drive by that says cows for Trump. And I'm like, ⁓ good Lord.

we moved out to the country because we wanted to live differently. This was like all a part of my process years ago. Like I wanted to live more integrated and holistic. And what I've noticed is being out here when I don't have the news and the media on and I'm not worried about comments from wherever, it's really quite peaceful.

And on my road, I know there are people that I don't agree with politically, but yet we still get together and have a beer on each other's front porch. And I know a lot of people in this area I'm not gonna be with politically, but yet I helped my neighbor corral some cows the other day. I'm not, you know what I'm saying? So I think a lot of it is just.

the too muchness of it. then because Christianity often feels like it has to defend itself to prove that we are right and because that is somehow connected now to political identities, then it becomes amplified to the point that no one can agree to anything. what I've realized through so much of this stuff is it's really hard to convince people that aren't

ready to be convinced. There ⁓ was a, I think it was a leadership book years ago. I can't think of the guy's name. I apologize to the guy that wrote it. But basically he was talking about using the example of evangelism. he was making the comparison between ripe and unripe apples, right? He goes, lot of people spend so much time trying to convince a green or an unripe apple to become ripe, to be ready.

Alexis (20:13)
Yeah.

Seth (20:34)
to be picked when really there's so many red apples, people that are in a place to hear or be open to the message that we just should focus on that. And I feel like I apply that to stuff today is like, I'm really not interested in arguing. That's not my temperament. It's not my personality. But if you want to have a conversation and you want to just talk about it and if you're asking questions, I'm more than willing to do that.

In fact, and in light of the reason I got let go was because of this gay marriage stuff. I had created a whole series on YouTube called, But How'd You Get There? And basically, was just to go like, had a lot of people at the church, even affirming people. I got so much love from the church. The issue was not the church body. The issue was the leadership. The church body has primarily left since then because

they were loving and supporting group. But I had a lot of people asking questions like, okay, we're already there, but like, how did you do that with your understanding of the Bible? And so was like, okay, so I just made this series. Here's this, check it out, do with it what you want. It's a free thing, and so I've gotten some feedback from that. As I was putting that together, I ran into a guy at the gym that I kind of, he looked familiar. I don't really know him, but he recognized me. And he said, ⁓ I heard what happened.

something I've been wrestling with. And I was like, ⁓ okay, this is maybe a great time to have, not the gym is the best time, but he seemed inquisitive, he seemed curious. is a gay man who's struggling with a sexual identity because of church. And so I started with like, ⁓ this is going to be great. I can help, let me help you. And then he kind of turned the whole conversation on me and was like,

Everything that I pointed to, he was very combative and we're standing in the gym. It's like 30 minutes of a conversation around like a crunch machine or something. like, dude, what do we, I go, we are not going to be on the same page here, because most of these issues, whether it's same sex relationships, whatever, most of that is the surface level issue to the deeper issue, which is how do you hold the Bible? You know, what's your starting point with that? Because everything else comes out of that. And so.

There's some people that aren't, I mean, literally a gay guy struggling with his, I don't know if he's struggling. He just kept saying, some of us are just called to suffer. And I'm like, what? that's not the God that I really believe in at all. And I'm like, dude, don't have to live like this. Like there's a better way, but he,

wouldn't let it go. So I'm just like, he has his line drawn on this issue. And even though I gave him 17 different things to consider or rethink, it wasn't going to do it. so in this cultural climate, I applaud guys like Brian who you had down here that would like, he just goes after it. And I'm like, that's awesome, man. I don't have the patience or the energy to do that. And I'm at a stage in my life where I'm like,

people, if they're not willing to listen, I'm probably not going to put my energy towards that because I want to protect that and I want to use that wisely. And I've got too much, I've got kids and a wife and the stuff, you know, that's more important to me, you know?

Alexis (23:44)
The story is helpful because what I hear from that is there is a man who is created in the image of God who is gay but was given interpretations of the Christian faith that says that you can't be gay and Christian. Is that what I'm hearing correctly?

Seth (24:00)
⁓

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he, he, he understood that, you know, it was okay to be gay as long as he didn't act on it because it was the acting on it that was a sin. I'm like,

Alexis (24:08)
Yeah,

whatever that means. Yeah.

Seth (24:13)
Bro, I've been

fighting with Christians who know the Bible better than me for 20 years. I say better than me in quotes. I'm not the smartest, irony in all of it is what I've noticed is that the people I respect in the world of scholarship and the stuff that I read to study and prepare for things, the guys that are top tier, like knowledge, most of those guys hold everything loosely.

Alexis (24:40)
Yes.

Seth (24:41)
It's the people that go to church once a month, every other day, whatever, that are like, no, it's black and white, thus saith the Lord. And I'm like, man, you guys, your understanding of this is far too small. Like it's so much bigger and better than what you've made it. And a literal reading is not the best approach. You're missing out on so much of the beauty of what the scripture I think was intended to be or how we can use it. Like, so anyways.

Alexis (25:06)
Well, let's talk about that. that is something that really broke open for me at some point. I didn't understand. I've been pursuing Jesus and the Christian faith my whole life, but for half of it, at least, was through that lens of a literal reading. I didn't understand once you look back at it and see that, well, this could be metaphor and this could be song and this can be literal and let's look at this in a way that we treat other books.

Seth (25:28)
Yeah.

Alexis (25:34)
I'm curious about how that was for you though, going to seminary and learning and being ⁓ a pastor, because my understanding in the pastor world is that that actually is broken up up for you ⁓ pretty early, like in seminary, right? Where it's like, so can you just help us under? Okay, okay. Yeah. So just, can you tell us all about like the inner workings of kind of like what that looks like as people are trained to become pastors?

Seth (25:51)
Not in the one I was in? Yeah.

Yeah,

Alexis (26:02)
what those options

Seth (26:02)
well,

Alexis (26:03)
look like and what that looks like for you.

Seth (26:05)
At the time,

was at the time for me, it was no, this is this. wasn't until much later that I started to like notice stuff and was like, well, I don't know about this. And then there's this I don't know about. And this doesn't seem to line up and what. And, it really, it just was kind of being in a pastoral role where you're like, I have to say stuff.

to people and try to give them hope or try to encourage them or try to help them live better lives on a weekly basis. So how do I like, you have to be going through it. And so for me, it ended up being like a live deconstruction through being in my role and going, I'm not sure how to fully speak to these things that I don't have answers for. And I'm not sure.

this is even the right thing or how these line up because this is not what I was handed. And what I was handed, it's easy. It's black and white is easy, even though you end up having to jump through more hoops to make sense of your faith, like to organize things in like the systematic sort of way, you jump through way more hoops. But when you start undoing that, it starts to get a little messy, which can be scary for some people. But also I think that's

where the good stuff is, that's where the freedom is, that's where things really begin to open up. I remember a lady told me when I first started preaching just different thoughts, like, you've heard this, it's basically like how Jesus taught. I know you've heard it this way, but I say it to you, right? Not that I'm Jesus, but that was the method.

Alexis (27:44)
Mm-hmm

Yeah, it's a good

method to emulate in teaching practices. Yeah, for sure.

Seth (27:53)
Yeah, this

is what you've been taught. Here's maybe a different way. And I remember a lady ⁓ who was since rejected me as a person going, it feels like ⁓ I'm a building on pillars in quicksand. Like she just felt like, I'm like, yeah, yeah. But also like, why is that something to be afraid of? That's ⁓ like the Pete Enns book, The Sin of Certainty. that's...

Alexis (28:19)
Yep, I was thinking about that.

Seth (28:21)
Christianity has bought into this idea of we have to have it all figured out. And I don't think anybody in the history of humanity, in spirituality, is like, have it all figured out. that's not, and even with how the Jewish people approach the Torah, it's about wrestling, it's about rethinking, it's about going through it. Like you can, I got it figured out as best I can today. You know, like I'm okay with that, but who knows what tomorrow may bring.

That's one of the things I have struggled to understand with ⁓ a lot of Christian folks, especially in the older generation is going, are we looking at the same Bible? Because I'm not sure, like how have you been in this faith your whole life and not uncovered some of this? How have you not moved beyond those lines and those boundaries that you are currently maintaining? don't, how is that possible that you're still there? I don't know. I guess it's the thing like,

you know, taste and see that the Lord is good. And once you taste and see it's hard to untaste and you can't unsee it. And I think unfortunately some people just aren't seeing it.

Alexis (29:29)
reminds me of Brian McLaren's book, A New Kind of Christian. he talks about different faith development stages, and it starts with simplicity, and then there's complexity, and then there's perplexity, and there's harmony, right?

Simplicity, he says, is where a lot of us will be stuck in our faith for our whole life, which is, know, certainty, good and bad, black and white, there is no gray, and it's common from like childhood and early religious experience because we were formed to say like, if you question outside too much or if you ask the question but don't accept the answer, like that's now like in sin or

Seth (29:52)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Alexis (30:13)
grey right? So then it would push us back into this simplistic thinking. And he talks about complexity, about how faith grows to be more pragmatic and flexible and functional, right? So it's questioning the nuance. So a lot of us went to college or seminary and started doing that, then you can move into this perplexity, which is where doubt and critique really dominate. And institutions and these traditions are really questions or they're really rejected. There's a lot of anger in this

Seth (30:16)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Alexis (30:40)
know, just trying to really like figure it all But Brian talks about how like continuing to move through that stage, like with Jesus, you can get to the stage of harmony. And that is this integrated stage that embraces this mystery and paradox and both and thinking it can embrace the gray of God compassion and wisdom take the center stage. And so that isn't that beautiful.

Seth (30:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

It sounds a lot like the spiral dynamics stuff. Are you familiar with that? It's too much too, but it's basically just like stages of development and moving from basically just survival to being more mystical and what you can track civilizations through this and you can kind of see based on the political things.

Alexis (31:09)
Tell me.

Seth (31:26)
We are at this specific stage in our understanding of humanity and whatever, but the goal is to get moved beyond. think Ken Wilbur was one of the main guys early on in some of this stuff, but I think it was him that used the phrase transcend and include. And it's like, you need those stages of development you take the good from that and then you leave the stuff behind as you grow and as you mature, as you transcend.

difficult thing becomes including the thing that you have transcended. Even though I feel like I've moved beyond a lot of things, when I see people that I adamantly disagree with on their take on scripture, the mature thing, not that I do it, in my head I know the mature thing is to have grace towards them knowing that, look, we're all on this journey.

Hopefully somewhere along the way you will come out of that. You will move forward. I know it's difficult, that's I think the biggest problem I see today is we don't have grace for other people with where they're at or the potential for them to move forward. And so rather than maybe being a bit patient, it's just easier to point and scream, you know.

Alexis (32:38)
Speaking of grace,

can you walk us through the story what led to you getting let go from being a pastor for all these years?

Seth (32:48)
have deconstructed years ago, cause I was forced to, being in that role, you have to say something. And so the past several years have been more like, how do I put this back together? So I was in a place of being affirming for several years, but also in an institution that, and an area.

Even though Orlando, which is the area I'm in, is affirming, the outsides of Orlando are not as much. so the church that I was at, the institution was not. So I'm not preaching on this directly. I'm preaching love and acceptance without being direct. being kind of coming at it from different angles. I haven't done any weddings. I know that that would be a big no-no for

the institution. And then there's some dear missionary friends of mine and their daughter came out a couple of years ago. She got engaged last year and then they called me were a family that I had a lot of conversations with and gave them resources. Like, like she's fine. Like she's okay. Like support her, love her. ⁓

Alexis (33:54)
Yeah.

Seth (33:57)
And so, you know, and they were conservative Christian type people and that was a struggle for them. They love their daughter. where do we set this within our faith as we currently understand it? they knew I loved and supported them. And so she had reached out and was like, Hey, ⁓ I don't know if you saw she's getting married and, ⁓ we were hoping you would do the wedding. And I was like, she goes, I know this is a big ask. I know where you're at. I know where the church is at

you say no, it's okay, we understand it, we still love you, but you're the person that we would want to do this. And I was like, let me pray about that a little, let me think about that, cause that literally is an ask to potentially put my job on the line. And then as she talked, she was going, you know, we have just lived with so much rejection from our Christian friends since.

our daughter came out. If you say no, we know you love us, but we're building a callous towards some of the hurt and rejection. And I could just hear this pain in her voice. And by the time she got done talking, I was like, you know what? Just, just pencil me in and I'll, I'll figure out the rest, you know, like

I don't know how you could hear a mother's heart breaking and see that how they have it, what they've experienced from church people, from the Christian communities that they're connected with that loved and supported them until what you cross this, this is the line of all the dumb things. That's going to be the line. Like how, how is this still a conversation is my thing.

I just, was so brokenhearted by what this woman had said on the phone. I just was like, put me in and I'll sort through it. I went to our staff and my staff was fantastic. we talked about it and full, you know, here's the situation. What's your guy's thoughts, you know, and just to kind of throw it out there, all of my staff was on board. So I went to our leadership.

And I said, here's where we're at. Here's my understanding of scripture. Here's where my heart is at. it would be difficult for me to not do this. I just need to know how you guys would like to move forward. And, um, their response was two weeks later, here's a resignation letter. So, um, it's, it's just, it's wild and sad and, know, I know this is.

the transcend and include part that so sucks. I believe that those guys in their heart are pretty good dudes. several of them have looked out for me and taken care of me for several years. Um, it was hard. was a difficult comfort. mean, there was a lot of tears shed in that process. but at end of the weren't willing to budge where they were at. And I was just going guys,

I just can't do this anymore. so many churches say all are welcome. I'm like, okay, I don't buy that. And my heart is to welcome all.

So that kind of was that. then all the church drama that ensued, but that's besides the point. And so now this is where we're at.

I've got, I got a lot of love and support from the church initially because I think a lot of our church people were already there.

I hadn't preached openly affirming, obviously pro love, pro acceptance, but not that specific because it's where the church is at. And even still, because I attempted to have this conversation, cause in my head, actually I thought, you know, I've built up enough clout.

over 14 years with this church and with this congregation that even if they don't agree, maybe we could have a conversation about it in church. Like, let's talk about this. Like maybe this is the chance to open the door to have this larger conversation. And that's thing too, the wedding wasn't even at the church. It was not at the church, hasn't happened yet. And they just decided that that is the no fly zone.

Yeah, ⁓ it's sad, it's tough, it's not super, a little surprised because of how well things were going for the church. ⁓ And so now there's a lot of people in our area that are hurting looking for church because I think what we were doing was creating a different space where kind of like your thing is, know, like there's different ways to understand this stuff and

If at the end of the day, we're all pointing towards love and loving each other, then it's okay if we're off a bit here and there. But if we are excluding or bringing harm to or anything that's going to cause damage or dehumanize another person, that should be the line.

Alexis (38:56)
My heart really goes out to you we talk about allyship a lot, right, on progressive sides. I actually told a gay friend of mine who was raised Catholic, and then, you know, that didn't work out for him to be able to stay in that institution at this moment. just the loveliest guy, and I wanted him to know that, like, there are pastors like you that

talk about loving your neighbor as yourself and being an ally to someone who you care about and someone in the queer community. You gave up everything for the love of this person.

Seth (39:33)
Yeah, okay.

Yeah, but also that's so I have some two, two of my good friends are married lesbian couple, right? And I have realized I have a, I think my niche is ⁓ middle-aged athletic lesbians. Apparently that's I really, I really click. That's like the group. That's like my tribe apparently. Like I click with them.

so after this happened, I went and talked to them and just because they're my friends and I was like, hey, and not to like pat myself on the back, but I was sitting there having a pity party for myself what I have experienced through this. I am fully aware is so tiny.

compared to what people in the community experience from the church. I appreciate the comment is what I'm saying, also the hurt that people experience, what I've experienced is nothing. You know what I'm saying? Okay, big deal. It's a job, move on, dude, you can do other things. But when people grow up being told they're worthless or being told they're condemned to hell and that...

is part of what gets ingrained to who they are because of a sexual orientation. That's the sucky where my heart grieves for. ⁓ another white pastor lost a job. Big deal. You know what saying? Get over yourself, bro. I will say I had one person tell me,

in some of the conversations, they go, this is not a hill I would die on. And they said, you're gonna get left holding the bag without knowing this family or this couple at all, they were like, they're using you to get what they want and you're gonna be the one left with the hurt And no one's gonna remember or care.

I had mentioned that to my friend and she immediately teared up and was like, but Seth, I remember and that woman, that girl will remember and that family will remember. that was the touching moment to me. again, with the understanding that my experience or whatever difficulties through this process is

so minor compared to the hurt people in the community have gone

Alexis (41:59)
you are a person of Jesus who has studied taught on God and the Bible and the Christian faith your whole do you understand God's love and message for the queer community?

Seth (42:11)
to understand? It's just love, We don't need to make it that complicated. Like love, yes. You, okay, yeah, come on. You, yeah, in. ⁓ you're what?

why I struggle is there so much fighting about this

it's good to keep talking about it. Understandable. We should keep talking about it, but also what's to talk about? It's acceptance. You're a child of God, a person of God. Come in, you're fine. I've got you. I love you. I embrace you. I accept you. That's kind of the conversation for me, you know, like.

Alexis (42:49)
Mm-hmm. Thank you for that. I mean, it sounds so simple, right? But I mean, so many people have never heard that from their local church space. Yeah.

Seth (42:57)
Yeah, that sucks, doesn't it?

That's the sucky part. Do you know? That sucks.

Alexis (43:05)
I really want to thank you though, because I know it sounds simple to you of what you said. And I know that so many Christians believe the same way, right?

Like it's just about literal love without conditions and everybody is welcome to have an experience and relationship with the divine, right? Like, and we are called to love God and love neighbor Jesus talked about that, but the problem comes in when we don't hear that enough from pastors, from people that are on the pastoral level.

platitudes, but then we hear the conditions later, right? And so that's why it's so important for someone like you with your voice and experience and everything that you have learned about Jesus, about the character of Jesus, about the divine. And if you're saying as a leader, as a Christian leader, this person who spent his whole life doing this, no, this is what it's about. We need your voice more than ever right now as a

Seth (43:45)
Right.

Alexis (44:08)
talk about then how deconstruction unfolded for you and what did reconstruction look like for you afterwards?

Seth (44:16)
being in that position for us to come up with stuff, talk every week and learning and growing. there's so many great authors and scholars and all the people that are doing so many wonderful things. And so that all...

of factored into the equation and then how do you do that publicly live, like you're live streaming your life to people as you're trying to unpack and undo and put stuff together. ⁓ so I spent several years in the unpacking phase. ⁓ I'll tell you the big moment that really, this is going to sound dumb, that was like the linchpin in pulling everything apart was the church wanted me to do a giving series. So I was like, ⁓ God, I hate

I'm 100 % into generosity. I believe generosity is a fabric of the universe. I don't like, hey, you have to give to this thing, Because my kids need shoes. So I was looking at different sermon series that are out there. What could I use? I don't want to do this. And there was a guy from some megachurch in Texas and that was his whole thing was tithe, tithe, tithe, then...

traded this and I got a plane and I traded this and I got a spaceship and you're like, And so I was reading through a book that he had written about it. And one of his major selling points was a passage from the Old Testament that had to do with bringing your donkey or something. And then if that wasn't, you had to break its legs and then kill that thing in order to make it. And I was like, what are we doing here? How is this the message you're using?

for your stuff, which then led me to be thinking about salvation issues, which was like the whole story of traditional Christianity is weird if you think about it. So God created all that is and said it was good, but then we ate an apple and it was so bad that now everything is screwed and God is so angry with us and we can't possibly please God. But we're trying to please God, but the only thing that will please God is God seeing God's own blood.

God through slits his wrist and then sees his own blood and then all of a sudden God's okay with us. But that's the story that we're getting into. And so that was kind of the big thing. I went from tithing and sacrificial animals to what do we believe about the cross and what do we believe about Jesus to, oh my gosh, there's...

better ways to think about this. after that had to start working on putting things back together. And to me, I think one of the biggest things that has kind of shaped everything was the idea and the understanding of creation being the primary revelation of God, And there's stuff to kind of support that, that to me has been the biggest influence and help.

where I've ultimately landed with a lot of this stuff, and this is kind of where the book comes in, is that the story of creation, right, not literal, metaphorical, poetic, whatever, I think that to me, I see a blueprint within that for how we can live. And the biggest thing to me in everything is, you know, Jesus says, I've come that you may have life to the fullest.

When I look at a lot of modern Christianity or even, you know, I have extended family and stuff that are very pro-Christian and I look at their lives and I go, this does not look like life to the fullest. And yes, you can out quote me on scripture. You could quote my face off with the scripture. But when I see how you're living, I don't.

want any part of that. I look at this creation story as a blueprint, right? And what you see to me is there's like these four key relationships. There's the relationship with God. What does that look like? There's the relationship with ourselves. They were naked and they felt no shame. There's an innocence of pureness there. Like there's a being comfortable in the own skin. There's, ⁓

relationship with each other. They were intended to work together, not to be this, but to work together for the flourishing of the garden, right? This is how we as humans. And then the relationship with creation, and that is they were given a responsibility to care and to care for and to tend to and to help it to flourish. And so to me, I look at that and I go, ⁓ that's a pretty good blueprint. And then a lot of the teachings of Jesus and how we see him doing things actually

fits into that. And what I've noticed in my own life is if I do live into those things that that actually gives me a better life. And so if I'm going to experience the fullness of life to me, it's like, how do I live into these relationships? And even beyond that, like if you're talking about God and if you, you I don't know if some people are, you know, lean into the Trinitarian, some people don't because conversation, but if you look at the, you know, God, Father, Son, Spirit,

Like God is relationship. That's so everything and God is love according to first John. So God is love. God is relationship and all things have come from love. All things have come from relationship. So relationship is what sits at the center in the heart of all things. So yeah, like, know what I see in a lot of people today? Insecurity, self doubt, guilt, shame, torture, whatever.

yeah, I want to live in a place where I'm quite comfortable with myself. Yeah, I still get nervous and I still question and doubt occasionally, but for the most part, I trust that I am created in the image of God and so therefore I am one of God's children, like whatever, like that's my identity. ⁓ We ultimately, I like to say we are from and for, we are from the earth and for the earth. We are from dust and love and we are for life and light.

that gives our identity and our purpose. So much of my life has changed as I've gone down this path, as I went through the difficulties of deconstructing, and as annoying as so much of the church is right now. If it wasn't for some of that, I also wouldn't have got to the place that I am. So I have to transcend and include, right? I have to include that and go, that was some of the... I started running because I was about to have...

Like a mental breakdown, right? Like, and I started running far and far, like to the point I was doing counseling once a week. ⁓ like I, I like this. I run ultra marathons now. Like that's how bad it was that I run ultra. I've, I've ran two, two, 100 mile races. Right. That's crazy. Do you know how crazy you have to be to do that? Like how messed up was my life that I thought that was a good idea. Like.

Alexis (50:59)
wow, wow.

Wow.

Seth (51:17)
But also guess what? In that change with the running, clarity helps spirituality. I do trail running, so I'm out in the woods of connecting with the divine, which is God's primary we bought this property that we live on. We have five acres where I garden and I have chickens and I have goats and I have all these things. And what I've learned is when you really look at creation, how you think about creation shapes how we think about God and how we think about God shapes how we think about creation.

Alexis (51:23)
Hmm.

Seth (51:45)
And so when I look at creation, and especially as I've tried to plant and have a garden and all this stuff, which was all new to me, what you see is that there is generosity built into the system, everything that is created has the ability to create more of itself. you cut open a tomato, there's hundreds of seeds in one I take that tomato and plant that one tomato, all of sudden I have 300 tomato plants.

are all producing X number of like it's exponential in its generosity. The earth is everything that is creates more of itself. And so I look at that and I go, ⁓ what creation reveals to us is that this is a benevolent universe and that the God who was a part of this is a benevolent God. for me, it all kind of comes back to that. And then going back to the story of creation and going, ⁓ okay. Okay. So

The goal is the fullness of life. The goal is flourishing, you know, a yolo sort of way, you know, just like, no, no, no, like healthy relationship with the self, proper connection with one another, being able to see the humanity of one another, understanding that we aren't called to exploit the resources of this earth. We're supposed to maintain and manage and help it to flourish,

See, all this stuff ties together for me. This is the problem. Because then you get into issues, right? Like how are things going to end, whatever, and where do we go when we die and all these things? Well, if you've been taught your whole life, some god warning when this life is over, I'll fly away. Guess what? It doesn't matter what I do now for this planet because who cares? Might as well get the most of it that I can. But if you have a change in how you understand some of this

Alexis (53:08)
Mm-hmm.

Seth (53:27)
I had kind of moved more into the restored earth sort of thing if there's that. I have a lot of questions still, but that to me makes the most sense at the time and going, well, if it's going to be restored, then I have responsibility now. What I'm doing now matters. It's setting up for what will one day all be restored. So it's important, which means even the small things that I do is important. And so there's also these correlations between

Alexis (53:49)
Hmm.

Seth (53:52)
how we take care of the earth that we live on and then the earth that is ourself. Of course we eat Twinkies. because we have trash dumps everywhere. That's the same mindset. Do you understand? What are we doing?

Alexis (53:57)
Mm, yes.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. There's this really beautiful album from the Porter's Gate called The Climate Vigil Project. It's an amalgamation of so many amazing Christian artists like Jon Guerra is on it and Sara Groves is on it. And it's all about creation care and lament for the earth.

So let's talk about your new book. To Give the Universe a Hug. Can you show it to

Seth (54:27)
the original

Alexis (54:29)
tell us about your book and then what does it also mean to pursue an integrated and holistic faith?

Seth (54:34)
everything we just talked about. I kind of explore, it's broken into four parts and those proper relationships. the story of creation using those four relationships, I like to call it the original commission, Church talks about original sin. For some reason, we don't talk about original goodness or original commission. Like that was the starting point.

Alexis (54:50)
Mm-hmm.

Seth (54:51)
wholeness,

Alexis (54:51)
Yes.

Seth (54:52)
connection, oneness, unity, singularity, connection, relationship. in the book, addressed this because on one hand, it seems like maybe overly hippie. Like, geez, nobody's going to buy this at a Christian bookstore is what I'm saying. To give the universe a hug, what do you worship the planet or something? But what I am intentionally trying to do

and I point this out at the beginning, is use language hopefully for more people. If you're a super-Christiany person, understanding I'm writing these things this way and this is rooted and grounded in scripture. And if you're not a super-Christiany person, understand that I'm speaking to things that are larger than just this one particular understanding. And so I go through those four key relationships, but then I also point out how a lot of other religions teach

same things in those categories, like loving others, loving yourself, was one stat that I remember finding was like 75 % of the world's population claims

Alexis (55:38)
Yes.

Seth (55:47)
at least one of the five major religions. All of those major religions teach earth care, and yet we have the Pacific trash vortex. So either the world's pollution problem is a result of the 25 % of people who have no belief, which is not possible, or the 75 % of us haven't taken it seriously. Like what are we doing? so I just kind of go through those four things, and then I actually try to give some like

Here's just simple practical ways to live into this better. So it's not really a how-to, but it's got some simple things that help people try to do it better.

Alexis (56:21)
I was curious about the word the universe. you hear that a lot in progressive spaces now the universe gives this back to me. I always found that interesting. And I always want to ask, like, were you raised in a Christian home and then something really awful happened? And then now this is like a way of connecting with the divine, but not. what I realized along my process is that God is the universe, right?

Seth (56:23)
So.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alexis (56:46)
and God is there too. So whether you call it the universe or God or whatever, this is who created all of our features and our characteristics how do you see the universe? you see that as creation, as

Seth (57:00)
the word God carries so much baggage, right? It just so much weight in those three letters. And so to me let's have a different starting point maybe so you don't come in with as many preconceived notions and then let's go from there. of the great things and this helped me out a ton, Pete Rawlins,

Alexis (57:03)
Yes.

Seth (57:19)
He's Irish theologian, philosopher, so smart, awesome, love him. said, God is not an object in the world. God is that which helps us to understand other things. So like light. You cannot see the light, but it's the light allows me to see. And so many people, ⁓ they want to be able to define God. God is like this shape.

God looks like this, God acts like this, God is... And when you move beyond that, that causes a lot of problems, right? Because if I can describe it, then it's within my understanding. And I think when you remove the idea of God being an object in the world, God is that which helps us to understand all other objects. God is the light that allows us to see, then all of a sudden, oh, okay, it's all that's encompassing. Like we live in this love that pervades all things.

And when you start to see and understand that, that to me is like kind of the big kind of change to going not the gray beard in the sky that's throwing lightning bolts, which is more like Zeus, which is more like, you know, Greek philosophy than it is anything. God is this bigger, it's part of connected to everything that is, God is ingrained in everything it is. mean, the scripture, I think people don't realize how much scripture talks about stuff that's actually, I think, pointing towards stuff like that where

certain Colossians where it's like God is in all through all and know overall under whatever. there's several passages that speak to these things like I'm not saying like everything is God right but I feel like God is in everything. There's a deeper truth that unites all of it.

Alexis (59:00)
thank you for your online ministry as well. a lot of the theologians and pastors that I speak to who have online presence, they were called to that like you said,

If people are not ready to hear and to listen, then that's one thing. But when you're having an online ministry, you can find those who really need your voice and maybe don't live in a location where they have access to people who are fighting for LGBTQ plus inclusion in church just by saying it's as easy as loving all people.

or talking about all of the questions and the doubts and the journey that you went through. People really need that right not to platform you, it's to say that people like you and your voice is really the online space right now as love. So keep doing that good work.

Seth (59:43)
Thank you.

thank you. I appreciate that. I appreciate that.

Alexis (59:48)
for someone listening right now who feels isolated or rejected by their church spaces, what kind of encouragement would you give to that person?

Seth (59:58)
I mean, I think first of all, the most important thing is just realizing you're not alone. Cause the problem is so many people feel like maybe they're in some sort of like island or they're stuck on the island of misfit toys by themselves or something, you know, like I don't belong here or like I'm all alone. And, and I think just hearing more people give voice to it, I think at this point, there are so many people that are doing so much good work. you can at least find somebody online.

the difficulty I think sometimes is trying to find that tribe, right? Like, but they're out there. They are out there. sometimes it just takes a little boldness of saying, is who I am. This is where I'm at. was a famous comedian talking about another famous actor comedian. was like Conan O'Brien or somebody.

And he said, in this world of noise, how do you get yourself noticed or something? And he was like, you're playing a triangle and you just keep tapping the triangle and you just keep doing that consistently and long enough. Like eventually people will start to hear, even though it's just the most small thing, they'll tune into that and start to hear it. it's frustrating sometimes, but there's a merit to just going just one day at a time, one step at a time.

I'm going to do today. I'm going to see who's out there and keep beating the drum, playing triangle. And hopefully my tribe will hear that or I will be open to listening to other people doing the same thing. know it's a tough place to be. I know it's a lonely place to be. If you've got nobody that's on your side, like go into a family dinner where you're the only one like, you're like, whoo.

Yeah, hang in there, hang in there. That's all you can do until you can find your people.

they could also just like reach out to me.

Alexis (1:01:38)
actually really, it's really important. You are a pastor with an online presence. And if you are there for people and you're willing to put that out there, that's important. So thank you for being there.

Seth (1:01:48)
My number

is

Alexis (1:01:52)
Where can people find you online by the way?

Seth (1:01:55)
Everything is like Seth Andrew Cain. started TikTok. I've never done that. That was weird. It's weird. It's a lot. It's been cool. It's been a lot. I have Instagram for a long time, Facebook. I feel like it's like age demographic, isn't it? It's like who's on what. Yeah, I'm learning all this

Alexis (1:02:12)
Yes. Yeah.

as we close today, there are people listening who feel unseen or have felt like they had to leave their local church spaces that doesn't mean that their heart is not focused on Jesus, on God and on love. But they haven't been prayed over in a long time.

Would you be willing to pray for those people?

Seth (1:02:33)
Dear Lord, I am just grateful for this conversation. I'm grateful for the work that Alexis is doing in our heart for people like me, for people who are out there who need some love and encouragement. God, I pray for all of us who feel like misfit toys sometimes, God. I ask that

You help us to find each other, to help us to look out for each other, to be sensitive to each other's needs. God, I ask that you help us to encourage one another. God, I pray for those who felt unseen, who felt like they've been overlooked, who felt like they have considered themselves of value. God, I pray that everyone that is listening today knows that they are valued, that they are loved by you, and that each and every single one of us

is your child. God, we are grateful. Help us to live in love. Help us to live in generosity. us the courage to speak when we need to speak, the courage to be silent when we need to be silent, and the strength to love when we need to love. God, we love you. In Jesus' name we pray, amen.

Alexis (1:03:38)
Amen.

Seth (1:03:40)
Did you hear though how I just ended that with my, that's my little Seth Church Seth going, and in Jesus' name we pray.

Alexis (1:03:50)
Yes. Amen. I still say amen even though I go to a church that says amen and I just still say amen. I don't understand. I don't get it, but it's fine. know, everything that has made us who we are, we got to take it and be the best versions of ourselves so that we can love God and love others,

Seth (1:04:07)
Yeah.

Yep.

Transcend and Include.

Alexis (1:04:13)
transcend and include. Seth Cain, thank you so much for being with us today.

Seth (1:04:16)
There. Yeah.

Alexis Rice (1:04:18)
Thank you for joining us today on The Sacred Slope. If you'd like to nominate a pastor, priest, or clergy member anywhere in the world, send me an email at Alexis @ thesacredslope.com. Music was by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin, and Sean Spence. May the fruit of the spirit guide you this week. I'm Alexis Rice. Go in peace, friends.