3. Rev. Dr. Chris Davies (UCC) – When the World Feels Like It’s on Fire: A Raw Conversation with a Pastor for the Soul

🎙️ 3. Rev. Dr. Chris Davies (UCC) – When the World Feels Like It’s on Fire: A Raw Conversation with a Pastor for the Soul

In this deeply vulnerable and pastoral episode of The Sacred Slope, Alexis Rice welcomes back Rev. Dr. Chris Davies, a reverend, theologian, and executive minister in the United Church of Christ. What unfolds is not a traditional interview, but a sacred conversation about grief, fear, joy, and faith in a moment when the world feels unbearably heavy.

🌍 The world is so chaotic right now
If you’re scrolling social media looking for catharsis, Rev. Dr. Chris Davies has it for you. This episode offers soul care in a time of collective grief—when outrage cycles, political fear, and spiritual exhaustion have left so many feeling lost and alone.

Alexis and Chris reflect on how their relationship began during the COVID and George Floyd era, when a single act of pastoral care—holding space for a stranger—became a catalyst for The Sacred Slope. Together, they explore what it means to tend the soul when institutions fail and anxiety is high.

✨ In this conversation, we explore:
• What real pastoral care looks like beyond “hot takes”
• Why Christian nationalism is an empire project—not the Gospel
• Why joy is not escapism, but resistance
• How queer communities survive through celebration and belonging
• Why exvangelicals are uniquely equipped for this moment
• How faith can remain rooted in love, not fear or purity tests

Chris reminds us that faith has survived fascism, empire, and collapse before—and God is still found in the cracks.

🕊️ Voices & References
• United Church of Christ – @ucc.coalition
• Rev. Darrell Goodwin – @revdgoodwin 
• The Daily Show – @thedailyshow 
• RuPaul's Drag Race – @rupaulsdragrace 
• Dan Savage – @dansavage 
• Sharon McMahon – @sharonsaysso 
• Find Hope Now – https://findhopenow.org

💛 A note to our listeners:
If this conversation helps you, please share this episode with someone who may need it right now. Please also subscribe, follow, rate, and review the podcast so The Sacred Slope can continue reaching those searching for care, clarity, and community.

#Christianity #Deconstruction #OpenAndAffirming #ProgressiveChristianity #Exvangelical #FaithAfterEvangelicalism #ChristianNationalism #QueerTheology #WomenInMinistry #MentalHealth #TheSacredSlope

Transcript

Chris Davies (00:00)
I was at church, my church, the other day, someone asked me, hey, could you talk to my teenager? Because she's really confused about all of these current events and is having a sense going on. And I said to figure, can I talk to her about Christian nationalism? they were like, yes.

Because I think that if we pretend that's not happening, we've done ourselves a disservice. If we pretend that we're not seeing the state try to utilize this religion in a way that helps maintain and continue power for those that already have it, yes, they're going to do that. They're going to do that because it's effective. It's effective because it's been used for 2,000 plus years in one way or another.

I mean, we've seen multiple empires say, this Christianity should be the religion of the state, therefore we can control it, therefore we control what pieces of it should be articulated. And I'll tell you, it's not the same pieces that are articulated by the folks on the margins clinging to it because there's liberation messages in there. for me, I am Christian because this faith has liberation messages. I am Christian because,

I am a C-H-R-I-S-T-A-A-N. Doodle-doodle-doodle. okay, let's deconstruct that a little bit. Like it will live eternally. You know what I want? I want my children's children's children to have access to a Christian message that tells them that they are having a sense of belonging, worth being loved, and that it's their responsibility to love their neighbor and in this together. We thrive when we all thrive

Alexis (01:07)
i-a-n

Chris Davies (01:25)
I'm in. Like baseline, love God, love your neighbor, love yourself. So if you have a religion that's telling you don't love yourself, you got to see what's going on here. If they're telling you don't love your neighbor. No, I'm just kidding. You know, what do you have left? Well, turns out. when.

Alexis (01:42)
Yeah.

What do you

have left?

Chris Davies (01:46)
have a power system that's set up to uphold those who are still in power that want more power, that want more money, and then the people upholding that are not valued. They're not seen, they're not loved. Belonging is, like the best pace of belonging for white men is through hate. That's actually on the rest of us too. You know, the left has done such a good job of eating each other. You only get it right if you get it perfect. That we've...

left out this swath of invitational belonging that is necessary for our movements to survive, to thrive. We don't actually get to leave people behind. And that includes white men. We have to say, gosh, you know, how confusing. You've never been taught a real feeling and the only way you get to your feelings is through anger. Oof, that's got to be really tough.

I don't think we're going to solve it in one generation. But as I raise a kid who is assigned male at birth, you better bet I'm teaching him how to feel. I mean, we'll see how he grows and who he grows into. And I will love him no matter what. belonging, welcome, paying attention around you and how are they feeling belonged and welcomed. I'm putting that on him as much as it was put on the rest of us who are the adult daughters.

And that may not be the right way, but you know, job security for future therapists.

Alexis Rice (03:17)
Welcome to the Sacred Slope, friends, where the slippery slope meets sacred ground. I'm Alexis Rice. This is season two, episode three, and today we have someone very special. have our very first returning guest. This is Reverend Dr. Chris Davies, and she is someone super special to me. This is gonna be a little bit of a different episode because we know each other.

We've known each other for many years now. And I just feel like in the wake of what's been happening the United States, and in the world right now, especially watching ICE.

committing some pretty unspeakable atrocities and creating widespread panic and fear, which is the point. The cruelty is the point. I wanted to let you in today on basically a conversation that I have with a spiritual mentor of mine, an advisor of mine.

I have a few very trusted pastors, priests, reverends, spiritual advisors, Reverend Dr. Chris Davies is one of those people for me. And so I thought, you know, in this time, I want to show you why I have been talking about the importance of, I don't care.

If you grew up in church and you left, I don't care if you never were in church, I don't care if you're still in a church and you wanna go to another one. In this moment where our anxiety is up so high and where we are just feeling lost and sad, I wanna show you the importance of having pastor, a priest, a reverend, a spiritual leader who has dedicated their life

to our souls. I wanna show you what that's like to just kind of have that. And this isn't therapy. I also have many therapists in my lifetime. We'll talk about that another time. has a little bit less of a traditional format of an interview. lot of this was really off the

I'm very grateful to Reverend Dr. Chris Davies that she was willing to have this conversation also for you to help you and maybe encourage you that if you're feeling just alone and sad and scared, that maybe it's time to look for some soul care. Maybe social media isn't doing enough. Maybe your handful of friends aren't doing enough.

Maybe it's time to be known in community. And maybe it's time to start putting in the work and finding the right community for you.

this one gets a little more personal. I get more vulnerable. I'm not going to promise I'm not crying by the end of it. And, ⁓ you know, I've really struggled with how much to kind of show that side of myself to you because I really believe, that the sacred slope is about something bigger than me. I've always had that really strong conviction, but I've had some mentors lately who have been saying,

it's important to show the personal side of you. And I've pushed back and said, but this isn't about me. I really want to lift up the voices of others. the people that I trust have really said, but it's very important to also show more of you, of the human side. So without making this too much about me, I hope this is still really helpful for you. And I think it will be. We talk about some things that are incredibly

this time when we're living under increasing fascism. And we are not hearing these pastors and priests and reverends who are on the side of soul care, of loving our neighbors as ourselves, of loving ourselves, of loving God,

separation of church and state, caring for the poor, for the sick, for the naked, for the prisoner, for the immigrant, for the hungry. So I'd like to invite you into this conversation. I hope that you're able to let your guard down. Something that I also think is really special about her is that she is a woman.

in the United Church of Christ denomination that she'll talk about. And she is also a queer pastor. She has a wife and a beautiful child.

This conversation gave me a lot of hope and this conversation gave me the soul care that I feel like I need right now in this time where sometimes I want to have all the answers and I just don't feel like I do. And I just wonder where is God in all of this? And I'm telling you, I found God in the conversation with Reverend Dr. Chris Davies, with Chris. thank you so much to Chris

Thank you so much for your work and your care and your strength and your bravery and your wisdom and all that you gave to me and now to the world in this Let's keep pushing ourselves and each other forward in the love and the care.

that we so deeply want others to.

embody. Let's make sure that we're doing that ourselves by putting in that soul work ourselves. more thing I wanted to let you know, if there is someone you in American politics, senators, house members, governors, the liberal and the moderate side, I would

really love it if you could consider sending to them super important that they are talking to more progressive pastors in this time. I think it's a really key that I think that we're missing.

If you can do that, that would be fantastic. Also, I'm very interested in talking to Democrat House and Senate members. So if you know of one that you think might be interested talking about how their faith influences their values, that's something that I am interested in this year. Okay, let's get started.

Alexis (10:00)
Welcome back to the Sacred Slope, friends. Today we have our very first repeat guest. We have Reverend Dr. Chris Davies. Hello.

Chris Davies (10:08)
It's I'm so happy

to be back. What a treat.

Alexis (10:11)
I thought we could start today by talking a little bit about why I wanted to have you back on the show we have a very personal and special connection that I wanted to talk about. So today's not going to be an interview necessarily. Today is going to be more of kind of getting some insight into the way that you provide pastoral care. What?

Chris Davies (10:29)
for submission.

A conversation.

Alexis (10:33)
wanted to talk about something really special, which is, story of how we met and the story of how I found you. And then what you did to help a stranger who was in a time of need and how God has allowed that relationship to flourish, even though we're on opposite coasts of the US. during COVID,

I was really feeling alone and was during the George Floyd times. I was still a Christian, I've always been a Christian, but really feeling this move to get out of some of these more conservative fundamentalist spaces. I just had realized that I just didn't believe in those. And I hadn't in a long time. And I needed to find other expressions of worship. And I saw you. And I saw Reverend Darrell Goodwin.

talking about queering theology, queer theology. And I watched you just very simply in your beautiful glasses and your gorgeous lipstick and your beautiful robe, light a candle and say some prayers in quiet for the world. And I just, I was like, my gosh, I'm so drawn to the way that you are expressing pain in this moment.

so I reached out to you and you didn't know who I was. And I said, I was wondering if we could have a conversation and you took a call and I just sobbed.

Chris Davies (11:50)
you

Alexis (11:52)
And you held space for me, for a stranger. And that moment and that time that you took was a huge catalyst for this podcast and where we are today. we have continued to be close and you've been such a spiritual advisor and guide to me. And I just want to thank you so much for your care.

Chris Davies (12:13)
Thanks. I'm

really humbled by that. I feel really, really humbled by that.

how and who you are in the world and how you took those brave steps and that you were, you know, it's as much of you being ready and willing and open to what God can do differently you know, I can just be a mechanism of that. I think, I really think that, you know, there are so many Christians

in various places saying we can do this more we can do this better there's room for you you know they may not have all the right words they may not have all the right you know i don't really think it's the right words but like it may not align exactly but what is a heart seeking belonging met with another heart seeking belonging but an expression of christ

Alexis (13:03)
Hmm.

man, ⁓ I feel like I'm already gonna start crying. We've barely gotten going, so I this is probably gonna happen. I didn't know anything really about the UCC denomination ⁓ during that time. All I knew from it is, are the bad ones over there that this is from. Like I did, I had heard like, that's the political one. They're not

Chris Davies (13:21)
Yeah.

alert though, like Jesus

is very political. You don't hear him say that Jesus is not political. We're not actually paying attention to anything happening in the scripture. Just, you know, for the record.

Alexis (13:31)
You

No, you have to understand, we on the non-denominational side were apolitical and you guys were the political ones.

Chris Davies (13:47)
Oh, really? Yes. Oh, yeah.

A political platoon of Christian nationalism turned to 11. Theirs goes to 11, you know, but, you know, but like strip that back, right? Like there is no Jesus before the United States of America lies. However, that's like how some of that works. And it's infused within everything. And it's painful. And it's just like if you are taught your whole life that the way of Christianity is loyalty to one's country.

Alexis (13:55)
You

Chris Davies (14:17)
Of course it feels shocking right now as that's getting as as one's country is like peeling away layers of things that have been hidden for many for at least the last couple of decades for some not off not for all and finding that it's just shit under there like and our faith our Jesus our Jesus our Jesus like actually said a lot about how empire functions and

offered all sorts of suggestions about how we show up for each other, which is something like, you love your neighbor, you welcome the stranger. So somebody asks, a friend asks for help, you help them. Hey, can you, I don't know what to do right now. I feel like there's a Jesus for me, but the Jesus I know is gone. Yeah, of course I'll have a conversation with you. Like even from that first moment, right? Like the Jesus that I know is one that says just like,

you are somebody stretching for belonging or stretching for meaning making. And I've got the time and energy and space and like willingness to do it. Of course I want to. That's not always true. I mean, we relay the whole way, right? Like not everybody always has the time and space and energy, but we relay. And for me, that's part of the faith work.

Alexis (15:33)
Hmm. Hmm. So for people who don't know, would love to give a little bit of an overview, if you could, about the UCC from a UCC extraordinaire. as you know, I bip around to different denominations and everyone kind of has different words for leadership. So could you reintroduce yourself again those who don't know you?

Chris Davies (15:54)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So I was baptized in a tiny little church on the top of the hill in the rural town that I'm from. And then, like a couple of decades plus later, I was ordained in that same church, in the United Church of Christ, by the same pastor. This was a community of people that cared deeply about being in relationship across generations that carried me to a recognition of, should probably lead around this.

You know, and I will say too, there's this like, the United Church of Christ is a denomination that is formed on the hypothesis that we're better together. in 1957, that was the last time we had a major coming in of multiple streams of Christians saying, actually, this is more effective if we do it together as part of the uniting movement globally. And in the United States, that's

probably at this point around, I'll have to look at the, our stats, but probably around 4,700, 4,800 churches across the United I have the real privilege of the Reverend Darrell Goodwin in the Southern New England Conference, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Rhode Island. And I grew up in Connecticut, so I'm home. And that's about 570 churches

Usually in New England, that's the church on the green on High Street on Main Street, White Church. Usually, not always, but many ways in which that church has been a real purpose-driven church of that community. we colonized this area, it's like we came, we set up shop, okay, we need more space. We walk over the river and start a new church there.

in the UCC, we have this dual legacy of being denomination and then also a denomination that's stewarded by our polity, which means that the locus of control is the local church. So a local church can bring an issue or a concern or a shift all the way through a conference level, that's what we call regional, to the national level,

A local church can bring it all the way from the regional level to the national level and get other local churches, other entities on board. We sign on, we can make a statement. And what makes us different from a hierarchical kind of denomination is that it starts from the bottom and the bottom is where power is concentrated and it can kind of move What this means is that we can be really bold on particular issues as a result of our polity. for example,

we are outspoken intentionally on the issue of trans inclusiveness and belonging as a denomination, our transgender siblings, because a local made this really concrete. I think it was 2001. And we brought it all the way up to national and at General Synod, when we gather, they voted on it where we will do this. And that enables anyone representing the church to speak on it.

we voted as a denomination, yes, we receive this resolution and this is how we'll behave. Now, here's the tricky part is that the national level speaks to the local churches, to the world, but not for the local churches, not for them. So what that means is that, you know, it came from this local church, but that local church might not feel the same way all the way through. it's an interesting system to lead in. So.

That was a real deep dive into UCC polity. you're like, is the details of this? And I'll use this as a bridge to talk about like for my like, I think this is interesting.

Alexis (19:16)
I want this, I want this, I wanna understand.

Yes.

Chris Davies (19:28)
means like for the person, you can walk into any UCC church and have a unique experience. We tend to be bound by the same things like Jesus Christ is the head of the church. Yes, that's the first statement of faith and a particular kind of cultural flexibility, because most people coming to the UCC weren't born or baptized into it. That's rare. This is rare.

So depending on the region, you know, there's a different kind of personality for any local then the work that I do, I'm the executive minister for programs and initiatives Southern New England. It's at the executive level. So I'm thinking systemically about what's the impact of a faith based nonprofit profit working to steward resourcing and belonging for five hundred and seventy congregations and beyond.

how do I do that through these systems, through these governances, through these various places a degree of effectiveness? And I look at everything through a lens of end equity. So when I think about this kind of administrative work, I frame it as a kind of administrative activism. Somebody has to do this work. Somebody will be doing this work. And if it's me, then I can help shape

based on what I'm hearing from our people, what I'm hearing from those who are on the margins, I imagine in prayer and in conversation with God, and what I'm hoping for our faith many generations out. So all of that are part of the questions that I might ask before moving in any kind of particular direction. And I am always, always so grateful for my colleagues. It's never just me.

Alexis (21:01)
I, speaking of one of your colleagues, I want to just don't on on Reverend Darrell Goodwin for a minute because you introduced me to Reverend Darrell Goodwin and my gosh, what an amazing human being. Can you just tell us a little bit about who he is he's so incredibly special?

Not only as a black gay man who is serving in his leadership role and how incredibly important that is in this moment a devout Christian what a deep faith he has. every time he speaks I feel like he gives many sermons every five minutes. ⁓

Chris Davies (21:30)
He calls it a sneaker preach. I'm gonna you a sneaker preach.

I feel really, really lucky that I get to meet and know and work alongside Reverend Darrell He and I have been working together and imagining a future together for over 10 years now. And what I mean by a future together is a future for our church, a future for our world, and a systems way in which we can help achieve that. Because what is this work if we're not holding hope for that which comes thereafter?

And he's brilliant because he's a systems thinker. He's a pastoral systems thinker. You he can think not only about, how does this impact what we're doing now, but what are the partnerships we already need in place in order to assume that that is possible five, 10 years from now? And like holding that level of thinking takes so much practice.

and skill. And say honestly that I learned from him every time we're talking and also one who is both a colleague and a very dear want to sensationalize him. the same time, I do honor deeply because we're all human, right? And the ways in which we

Alexis (22:37)
Yes.

Chris Davies (22:39)
work together and work for the world are aligned. But you know what, I'll tell you about a conversation we had fairly recently, connecting across difference is a skill that is learned. So sometimes we have these conversations that are like, can you help me translate this that white ladies do?

And I'm like, ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah, I can do that. Like, yes, I'm happy to, yes, yes, is a thing. Any degree of feedback might inspire tears. That is a real thing. And here's some social ways that might be. And at the same time, can say things or learn things impact of,

the socialization of being the white lady in the world the oldest daughter who was responsible for many, you know, I mean, many of you know this intimately, that the impact and the ripple of that across difference, being in relationship with people is a way that we can humbly and honestly check each other and ourselves about who we wanna be and how we think we show up, right?

And this is specifically about Darrell, but more about I feel so grateful to the church because I would not have the same kind of authentic connection across difference if not for the church that I'm know, I was talking with my wife the other day about just like, she really wants our kid to know a lot of different kinds of people. And I was like, sweetheart, I know that you do that. I know that that's what we want for our kid. And I got to tell you.

Alexis (23:55)
Yes.

Chris Davies (24:00)
We are receiving that through our connection to the church. We are receiving that because of the work that I do not only that, but certainly as a part of know, I go to national gathering of our church. When I go there, I am in rooms having critical conversations with people who are so different than me. What a gift.

Alexis (24:04)
Mmm

Chris Davies (24:23)
you know, where else am I going to be on a working group with a Samoan elder, with people who were active on the front lines of, you know, the 50s, 60s, 70s civil rights first ordained lesbians or folks who are union organizers or

all in for farmers rights all of these different movements and people working within them coming together because of faith, and I can have a, are you conversation with a colleague doing critical work across the country in ways that I would never know otherwise, what real gift and rare, you know, and I think I take that for granted. If I'm honest with myself, I think I take that for granted a lot.

Someone said to me recently, the staff at the Southern New England Conference. And they're like, I've never had the opportunity to hear from so many different kinds of people. And that's the normal thing.

Alexis (25:20)
Do you know what

strikes me funny about that is hearing that and thinking like, in the church, there's all these different people and these different leaders that you get to be exposed to. like, I don't know. Well, it was mine because I was in lot of mega church settings no female pastors, I will say.

Chris Davies (25:32)
That wasn't your experience.

Thank

Alexis (25:41)
So that's a huge miss. And there were no queer pastors. So a a huge miss. I will say in a lot of the spaces I chose to be there was a lot reconciliation work, which was really important. And there was a lot of diversity was happening with seeing all of God's people from all different colors. And so I love that part. But

Chris Davies (25:44)
for that, ma'am.

Yes.

Alexis (26:01)
what strikes me wondering how other people in their church spaces or maybe the spaces that they live, maybe it isn't so diverse. Maybe when they go to their church space, I wonder like how many people are there who are like really different from you? And so, yeah, tell me.

Chris Davies (26:19)
Yeah, in

our small churches, probably not as much, but that doesn't mean difference doesn't exist. But I'm thinking of small churches, hill towns, rural churches, you're going to get the, this is what our community is. And there's occasionally somebody new who comes in and a place of belonging is a church. So you might have one or two new people who come in. So when I'm thinking about opportunity to be in relationship across

big thinking about our regional and national events, so than necessarily my church, though I say that the church that I'm a part of as a member, not as a, I'm not leading the church. I get to sit in the pew and I get to try to worship. And I say, try to worship because there's a child climbing on me. And I'm like, please sit down, please be quiet. You know, I mean, if, if, if you can't have a kid being a kid in the middle of church, when can you do it?

Alexis (27:03)
I hear you.

Chris Davies (27:08)
all of which to say, I, in some ways, am in relationship across generational difference, across ability, even thinking like intake of information, community care, like all of these differences that are present, even in a church that might seem the same. And if we're actually open to that, we can still learn from each other, hear each other's stories, be in relationship and be gracious and gentle with one another in the midst of that.

It's a microcosm. know how family systems are a place where we practice being our best and worst selves. Like churches flow out of that too, where you're going to get people that are at their best and at their worst because they're full of people being people-y. And it's an opportunity to practice all the hard things that we're taught to practice in faith. Love your neighbor as yourself. your neighbor? Well,

Turns out, anybody.

Alexis (27:57)
anybody and everybody. I've been thinking so deeply about the millions of people were raised in church spaces and then who have needed to leave those church spaces. I am so unconvinced at this point that those people uninterested in any kind of spiritual life and When I hear you talk about the UCC, I'm like,

If they knew that the UCC is this way, it aligns so well with so many of the values and morals.

Chris Davies (28:26)
I've gotta be clear though,

we're not the promised I mean, every institution I ⁓ I once heard denominationalism described as the way in which one group of people is so committed to one particular aspect of the gospel that they carry it forward with deep intentionality. know, the United Church of Christ, I can see us right now with two pieces.

articulated and I, you anybody check me on this, UCC folk. I can see this two pieces articulated. One, we are a uniting church. Come together. We need you. We are better together. And then two, we have become as a result of our polity, a church that is outspoken on critical justice issues of today because of our faith. And also churches being churchy in the way in which church knew how to be in a post-World War II.

country club-esque, come together and do it. like, know, everybody serves a part-time for free job on a committee to make this work type honor the building type. You know, all of these things that we're gonna get caught up on and we are getting caught up on as our churches grow. But to what you said about people who have left the church and are just like, I can't do that. I actually think ex-vangelicals, now's your time to shine.

Right now, I mean, who else has this kind of source texting right there, ready beneath the surface to do this? you know, you spent years reading the words of Jesus, and now you're seeing a huge dissonance between what is publicly called Christian and what you were taught, you know, to some degree.

what you read, what you know, what you see in the text, what you believe in your heart, what your faith, your God, like the God that you want to believe in says is possible. Like, now's your time to shine. Use that. Use it. I think it's such an opportunity for faith right now. And I'm not talking faith that ascribes to a congregation. I am talking about faith that is following Christ, because I do not think

that 20, 30, 40 years from now, we're gonna have this kind of congregationalism in the way that we know it. And I say that as one who is of the congregationalist tradition. I think that we'll have some doing really amazing things, but our faith is getting broader than the clubs that have carried it in these There are some incredible people doing faith work through social media. You're rocking it.

How amazing, we need that. We need it because people are getting their news, they're getting their information through these little social media clips and you know what else is possible? A gospel that is aligned with the Christ and the God that you have always known, despite people in power telling you that wasn't what it was. can we follow a God that we know is love?

Alexis (31:15)
Yes.

Chris Davies (31:23)
when if you take one micro misstep, you're cut off from your community.

No, not just, that's not right, that's not aligned with who I know, who you probably know God is. You know, it's not about purity tests. It's not about, be good enough. You're already good enough. You don't have to be better. I mean, you can do better. We'll do that together, but that's part of being in community, right? It's just like, gosh, I'm really wrestling with this right now.

help me think it through? Like when we first started talking, Alexis, like, yes.

is the wrestle if not an opportunity for God to break in and say I am bigger than you've always imagined and here I am in the broken places in the cracks here I am lifting you up saying you are in the company of many you are aligned with ancestors trying to figure out how to hold hope through fascism how to hold hope through genocide how to hold hope through the enslavement of people through the

concentration camps and the things that we are doing to each other in all of these ways that cannot be denied.

God is there saying, I'll be with you.

Alexis (32:39)
I think this is a really good example. We're being really raw right now in the sense of like, this is the pastoral care you get when you are community with people care about you and that care about each other that are fighting for what we believe is the way of Jesus, which is so opposite of what we're

living under right now. And it is really disorienting and really jarring for people. And I know that we live in a very beautiful, pluralistic society, should always embrace that. I will still say that the vast majority of people, even if they no longer believe in God or have walked away from a church, have been raised and rooted in this Christian faith, the vast majority of us in this country.

Chris Davies (33:07)
Mm-hmm.

Alexis (33:33)
And yet a huge group of us are rejecting. I think we thought it was rejecting God, right? A lot of people thought like, I must be rejecting this Christian faith. I must be rejecting God. But no, because what I'm seeing so much of is a lot of atheists going, hey, hey, this isn't Christ-like. Or a lot of people who used to be in church and have some sort of other understanding of spirituality, or they don't really know where they are, but you're right.

We have been raised our whole lives in the ways of Jesus, servant ministry, of humbling yourself in the presence of power, what is this cognitive dissonance happening right obviously the part of it that's so jarring is that there are Bible verses attached to so many of the propaganda that's going out.

Chris Davies (34:21)
Yeah.

Alexis (34:22)
There are, you know, this is the Christian way. I am the Christian witness. This is the Christian, the Christian example. Because there's one Christian. OK, OK.

Chris Davies (34:29)
Cause there's one.

It is, isn't it? It feels so bad. it makes a lot of sense to me as to why somebody a particular kind of church that has a only us, never them, we're right, you're wrong, that leaving is a break of faith. That makes complete sense to me. I should also say, like, when I was a teenager, the Gay Straight Alliance at my high school. That's what we called it then.

And I was in the Bible club because I love So for me, that cognitive dissonance never really happened, even though I was in both spaces. I still am in both spaces. And so I remember that was like the day of silence, the GSA was putting on. And then the Bible club was like, this is the day of truth. And I was just like, hey, ⁓ you guys, this is me. Like, can we talk about this? Because like, you know, I've been here studying the scripture with you at the same time.

Like I'm really clear of who I how God loves me just as I am because scripture also says that. So what's this about? that space, that liminal space, I think is where God really shows up. And if you're coming from a place that space for liminalities,

course when you step away, it lose I can do, I can spiral out and have my 45 minute deep weep session. Who doesn't? I schedule those. I try. We're talking about managing our minutes. I'll have my breakdown on Fridays. I don't have to be much then.

Yeah, as my previously scheduled breakdown, you know, I get through the like, get it all out of my body, weep it out, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry. And then I like, you know, I lift my eyes to the hills from where our help will come. And then it's like, I am in the company of thousands of years of people trying to survive.

trying to make joy, believing that the world might be just a microscopic version of better for their children, of our children. I am in the company of people who know beyond this struggle I mean, there's always a crisis somewhere in the world. We are always in an apocalypse somewhere. In America,

in American fascism, particularly for white folks, we are just now coming up to that wall of we've been sold a lie. And I say sold on purpose. We've been sold a lie we are the best, that we have arrived, that we will have everything we want, and then we can relax and retire.

As our systems crumble, as all of this comes apart, and we know that's happening, we know that, we can see it, we are then left with the loneliness, the emptiness, the what am I here for and what am I doing? I'll say for me, that place is a place where and this is like theology that's kind of new for me because in the UCC we want to shy away from sin, we want to shy away from brokenness, blah, blah.

But like, for me, have had a more robust theology of woundedness and sin in this era than I have had in a long time. It actually helps me and this is like, let me flip the script because I'm not talking purity culture. So just hold that thought with me. It helps me to think, ⁓ I am inherently good and sin is a part of my world.

Alexis (37:40)
Hmm.

Chris Davies (37:59)
there is no ethical way to participate in this world without capitalism. a sin there, but a personal, it is a collective. We are in sin. The sin is this system that means that billionaires can be billionaires and that poor people, their lives are discarded they are no to

That's sinful. so that actually helps me put some of this theological perspective, into action, into an awareness micro choices that I can make with recognition that it's not only about me, but about how are we continuing to hold this idea. let's just go all the way back to the basic heart of the gospel, right? The heart of Christianity. You will love your neighbor as you love yourself, and you will love God.

Just like, just that for a minute. If we can hold that idea as one worth working to, then we are offering the next generation something to hold hope onto. And both and. I mean, it's only one way will not work is that it has to also be both and, right? I have to hold

many things as true at the same time. One thing is true at the same time. I will continue to do this work for my whole life. I will continue to find a way to thrive as best as I can and my family as best as I can. And I recognize that there's a cost to that and that I will make choices that help mitigate some of that cost whenever I'm able. And I also need to be able to feel and experience deep, wild, reckless joy.

I have to, because we have to remind each other and our families and our communities and our friends why we're doing this at all. consider the lilies of the field, like joy, consider the lilies of the field, joy. those moments.

Alexis (39:54)
I've heard that joy is an act of resistance, an act of defiance. I think people who were enslaved in the fields singing gospel songs together. Is there anything that you can talk to about that? Because I feel like even in the queer communities

Chris Davies (39:57)
Mm.

Yeah

Alexis (40:17)
feel like the queer community especially has something to say about living joy. I feel like that's what RuPaul's Drag Race is partially about is just finding joy and fun and laughter and celebration in the midst of like the pain. can you talk a little bit about what we can learn from the queer community about?

Chris Davies (40:39)
Mm-hmm.

Alexis (40:39)
about joy

in the midst of oppression and

Chris Davies (40:43)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's really important for any of us to just note that there's not a monolith queer community, on multiracial community or People show up as individuals in the midst of that and they have their own traumas and joys and hopes and dreams and things that they're really passionate about along the way. And...

one of the most beautiful things about queer community for me is that it functions a lot what I'm saying church is like too. I am in relationship with people across mighty difference because we are in this umbrella of queerness. Queerdom, the queerness. know, what a gift. and of magic, if you will, is something that's to

move across difference, move across people groups, move across all of that. So there's like automatically relationship that is invitational or larger, broader than what it might be otherwise. And then I'm also thinking about like,

a quote oft Dan Savage, who's...

a sex writer, columnist, et cetera. talked about like during AIDS crisis, we buried our friends in the morning, we protested in the afternoon, and we danced all night. know, the dance kept us in the fight, he says, because it was the dance that we were fighting for. It didn't look like we were gonna win, and then we did. It doesn't feel like we're gonna win, but we could keep fighting, keep dancing.

my wife and I went to a big gay wedding. was a community affair. what I mean by that is just like a group of people that came together saying on this queer couple getting married, we are here in community and we are going to pour into this relationship in this time of American fascism, of continuous stripping away of all the rights that we thought we had, continuous.

challenge on right to exist and we're going to dance.

pour abundant blessings out. We're gonna be here. clinging ferociously to celebration and joy because that's what we that's what we all need.

Alexis (42:57)
Yes, that's what we need. What it brings up for me is I reached out to you. I can't remember which event it was because there's daily events that are traumatic. But I reached out to you recently and I just wanted to check on you and just say, how are you? Because I do feel like sometimes we forget that people in leadership are completely human, just like everybody else.

I would like to know how you're doing in this time. I feel like even since we talked last time, our country has changed a lot.

Chris Davies (43:28)
Totally, that was April. Last time we spoke, it was in April.

Alexis (43:35)
want to know how you're doing. I want to know how pastors are doing in this moment, how reverends are doing in this moment. horrific thing happens to a young man like Charlie Kirk, who was shot, Which nobody should ever be shot or killed for their beliefs, never. And the aftermath of that.

watching the Christian world, which is so incredibly different in terms of the responses, has just been confusing. It's like talking about two different people.

I'm gonna edit out some of this and we don't even have to talk about Charlie Kirk. But I just wanted to give it in the context of like, I feel like a lot of reverands and pastors were being told and pressured like, you better say something about this right now that he was a Christian man standing up for Christian values and we should uphold this. We should uphold this

Chris Davies (44:15)
you.

Alexis (44:29)
as the beacon, the shining beacon of Christ and the example for Christ. And I think a lot of us on the Christian left, So it felt very jarring, like, have you been?

Chris Davies (44:47)
I think that your lead up to that question is a really good example about what those folks call to proclaim the gospel experience every time they are.

Alexis (44:50)
⁓ my god!

Chris Davies (45:08)
What I mean by that is, there is no shortage of events that need a hot Christian There is no, I mean, here we are, did we get raptured? Turns

tell you couple of different ways, so with me. Oftentimes, if I am feeling pressure to speak on a particular issue, I have to pray about it and see if it's really mine to speak about. There are so many different kinds, there's so many people speaking. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it's not.

If I am feeling particular pressure to speak on someone who was killed because of their beliefs, that person that I am most apt to speak about is Jesus Christ.

That already happened over 2000 years ago. And he was a brown Palestinian rabbi organizing the people who was killed by the state. By the Empire for saying another way is possible.

I'm going to look at all those power dynamics and think about how to speak because

I both have to hold a lot of patience for and love for people for and hope about, and it annoys me unto no end and I have to get over myself about, is that, yeah, there's a playbook. It was Project 2025, all of these things that are happening. We had a sense we're gonna happen. Find a martyr, great, a martyr. Let's roll with that. And doesn't mean that people know that in their heart and that people are not gonna connect cognitively.

people are going to connect with the sense of belonging, with a sense of relationship, with a sense of care.

I was at church, my church, the other day, someone asked me, hey, could you talk to my teenager? Because she's really confused about all of these current events and is having a sense going on. And I said to figure, can I talk to her about Christian nationalism? they were like, yes.

Because I think that if we pretend that's not happening, we've done ourselves a disservice. If we pretend that we're not seeing the state try to utilize this religion in a way that helps maintain and continue power for those that already have it, yes, they're going to do that. They're going to do that because it's effective. It's effective because it's been used for 2,000 plus years in one way or another.

I mean, we've seen multiple empires say, this Christianity should be the religion of the state, therefore we can control it, therefore we control what pieces of it should be articulated. And I'll tell you, it's not the same pieces that are articulated by the folks on the margins clinging to it because there's liberation messages in there. for me, I am Christian because this faith has liberation messages. I am Christian because,

I am a C-H-R-I-S-T-A-A-N. Doodle-doodle-doodle. okay, let's deconstruct that a little bit. Like it will live eternally. You know what I want? I want my children's children's children to have access to a Christian message that tells them that they are having a sense of belonging, worth being loved, and that it's their responsibility to love their neighbor and in this together. We thrive when we all thrive

Alexis (47:52)
i-a-n

Chris Davies (48:11)
I'm in. Like baseline, love God, love your neighbor, love yourself. So if you have a religion that's telling you don't love yourself, you got to see what's going on here. If they're telling you don't love your neighbor. No, I'm just kidding. You know, what do you have left? Well, turns out. when.

Alexis (48:27)
Yeah.

What do you

have left?

Chris Davies (48:31)
have a power system that's set up to uphold those who are still in power that want more power, that want more money, and then the people upholding that are not valued. They're not seen, they're not loved. Belonging is, like the best pace of belonging for white men is through hate. That's actually on the rest of us too. You know, the left has done such a good job of eating each other. You only get it right if you get it perfect. That we've...

left out this swath of invitational belonging that is necessary for our movements to survive, to thrive. We don't actually get to leave people behind. And that includes white men. We have to say, gosh, you know, how confusing. You've never been taught a real feeling and the only way you get to your feelings is through anger. Oof, that's got to be really tough.

I don't think we're going to solve it in one generation. But as I raise a kid who is assigned male at birth, you better bet I'm teaching him how to feel. I mean, we'll see how he grows and who he grows into. And I will love him no matter what. belonging, welcome, paying attention around you and how are they feeling belonged and welcomed. I'm putting that on him as much as it was put on the rest of us who are the adult daughters.

And that may not be the right way, but you know, job security for future therapists.

Alexis (50:02)
We're

going to get back to you are, but I do really, think you hit on something really important. I was listening to Jon Stewart talk DNC chair and he kept pushing back on all the messaging I felt Jon Stewart's frustration with the democratic party's messaging, which like we clearly have not found. And I think you're hitting on something there.

Chris Davies (50:04)
I I really avoided that question.

Alexis (50:22)
is the great tragedy of the whole thing is like people, even though there was a lot of great messaging and there has been in the left in terms of the political system, still weren't drawn enough to it. They still were like, ⁓ I think Trump will still be better than the messaging that they're getting, which means this is the time for self-reflection of the messaging we're putting out

Chris Davies (50:43)
Thank you.

Alexis (50:45)
And I really believe that democratic politicians need to speak to progressive clergy in this country. Like, I think that you guys hold some keys and have some really important things to say. so moving ahead, before they start calculating who they're going to put in power and the messaging we're going to say, like, what has been lacking and what needs to

to change in terms of being able to help us defeat oppressive thoughts movements.

Chris Davies (51:14)
Yeah. like, okay, so

thoughts framed, but I also heard the whole frame of this question is in the binary of Republican Democrats.

Alexis (51:22)
Ooh, okay, see? Go ahead.

Chris Davies (51:24)
ultimately will serve us because I know so many people who would identify as Republican who are absolutely And I don't think that Democrats have the keys to the kingdom either. mean, have, democratic presidents to systems that are death dealing too, like our immigration system.

One of the things that the church does, the United Church of Christ does, is that we public policy work in DC. And their work is to engage in the coalitions and the conversations happening in DC right now. a recent presentation, I was hearing them talk about the role of faith people right now are the closers. there's going to be so much that gets us from here to there, but

faith language, faith moral systems have the unique ability to reach across these perceived divides and bring people in. I actually think this is critical work right now. And this is part of why I said like exvangelicals we need you right now, please come in with everything that you've been taught to, because that actually is necessary for the ongoing work of the hope that we have for the world we can live in together. In terms of like messaging,

This is going to sound dismissive, but I really don't mean it that much. I'm not putting my hope in the Democrats. I am not putting my hope in American government. It has already not been working for many people. And I am putting my hope in God. I am putting my hope in Jesus. I am putting my hope in a system of faith in a language that I have access to because of my ancestors that I hope to offer to those that come thereafter. To what we were talking about before.

been around pre-America. And it has been around pre-multiple fascist systems and how they rise and how they fall. Empires have risen and fallen and Jesus is still somebody we're talking about. And that's gonna be true when this transforms and is composted into whatever comes next. role in this is as a faith leader. I'll asterisx

by saying that I'm actually seeing a lot more faith leaders and faithful people get involved in local politics, getting on the town council. It's not them. It's how are we going to do this? that's also a different setup between the like, you know, the Democratic messaging or whatever. all of this messaging is going to shift, right? Like give it 15 years and we're going to have a fundamental ideological shift in this country simply because of aging.

But you ask me, how am I?

On the micro level, I'm decent. I'm decent. I am in a position where I have family, love, belonging, home, enough food, community. I'm living my best life in that way, even as.

all this. Because on the macro level, I'm horrified. On the macro level, this is unacceptable. On the macro level, I'm going to put all of that into. But I feel a responsibility I can say that. And that may or may not be true day to day. I'm still going to schedule my breakdown. But because I can say that, I feel a responsibility to stay in this conversation, to stay in this work, to continue to elevate the possibility that hope is out there. got a project in southern New England, findhopenow.org for people who are feeling hopeless.

FindHopeNow.org will give testimonies, stories of faith, stories of hope, And like you want to join up with a group of people doing their best, maybe right down the street from you. Like sure, we'll help get you there. may not be good enough and that's okay. We're all human, but like you don't have to do it alone.

So thinking through multiple angles of that, like, I also feel like I and so many others, including you were called for such a time as this.

Like these are the, you have unique access to language skills proclamation that is necessary today in a way that is more powerful, yearned for, more hopeful than ever before in my lifetime.

Turns out that like social justice and conversation with Jesus was something that like accidentally preparing for, not accidentally, it's because of my faith. My whole life is something that's necessary right now. it is my responsibility to stand up and say, you are loved. We can do this. You are not alone. We need you. There is a role for everyone in this movement and we need you.

Alexis (55:41)
Hmm.

It feels like it's enough to keep going. I feel like I have enough from God, from you, to keep going another day to have hope. One of the quotes that I ⁓ was Sharon McMahon. Sharon says so said something about

Chris Davies (55:49)
Thank you so much.

Alexis (56:00)
I will let this change how I show up in the world. So it's about, yes, there are the horrors and atrocities that are happening, but really thinking about, and in the midst of it, will not let this change how I show up in the world. I will not let it dictate how I show up in the world. I still have agency, even though I feel

Like I'm being dragged down every day, blow after blow after blow, feeling smaller and smaller and smaller and less free and less powerful than before. And that is by design, right? And yet, and yet, and yet, I can stand up and say, I refuse to let that dictate how I want to show up in the world for others.

Reverend Dr. Chris Davies, could you please pray for whatever's on your heart and for those listening.

Chris Davies (56:59)
to all that is sacred.

For the holy moving between I and thee. For the hope of possibility and the imagination of a world where all people have enough. I pray.

God, I pray for the dreamers and the creatives, the proclaimers and the doers. I pray for those who are feeling lost and lonely, that you may meet them where they are and join them in that search for community and care, knowing that it is out there.

God, I pray for the person listening with the rock stuck in their throat. May they feel your abundant love pouring in through all the cracks, recognizing their brilliance, their wonder, their God-given gifts.

God, I pray for Alexis in this podcast and all the people that it touches and all the ways in which she is bridge building your work, your realm, your hope. And no matter how people decide what to call themselves, no matter whether they have membership in a local church or are spiritual seeking.

finding hope and meaning making in the wilderness and everywhere in between. May you lead them, be with them, call them forward so that together we build the world that you imagined for us, locking arms with our ancestors saying this is worth paying attention to and hoping ahead for our children's children, that it may be just a little bit easier for them.

that they may use that ease to pour into the struggles they have for those that come thereafter.

You are God of many names. And in this prayer, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ, who taught us the way of organizing, who walks with us on this days and all the days, and who offers us meaning making through parable and story and song that we too may see the stories among each other that call us closer to you and to collective liberation. Amen.

Alexis (59:40)
Amen.

There is so much hope.

Chris Davies (59:52)
Mm-hmm.

Alexis (59:54)
And God is with us. And God wants us to be out there loving others and not unloving ourselves.

Chris Davies (1:00:02)
and loving yourself.

Alexis (1:00:10)
And this is why we need to be in community with each other.

because this is

Chris Davies (1:00:19)
infinitely

hard.

Alexis (1:00:22)
We're not supposed to do this alone.

Thank you so much for your care. ⁓

Thank you for your love and your gifts to the world. Thank you that you shine the light of Jesus wherever you go. And a blessing over you and your family as your very existence is constantly demonized right now.

And I just, I'm really thankful that you have found a way to.

make that so beautiful and have found a way to take the hate that you hear about and experience and those messages that you're constantly told that you are not enough and that you know in your heart that you are able to just say I know who Jesus is and I know Jesus loves me.

I don't know if I'm gonna put this on air or not. I'm not sure. Never cried on air.

Chris Davies (1:01:49)
Okay, people might figure out you're human.

Alexis (1:01:53)
Hahaha

Chris Davies (1:01:56)
I mean, we all are, Nobody's got it. Nobody's got it together. And if you think they do, they're lying.

and what a beautiful opportunity to meet people where they are.

I have my cry scheduled for later today.

Alexis (1:02:14)
Hahaha!

Chris Davies (1:02:16)
you

Alexis (1:02:17)
This was unscheduled, so I guess it's over with for today. ⁓ Thank you for your care and your love.

Chris Davies (1:02:20)
Yeah.

Alexis (1:02:24)
This will not be the last time we will see you on this come back and continue to bless us.

Chris Davies (1:02:28)
That's so fun!

Yeah, yeah. as an aside, I have a lot of moving pieces and parts and if you could pray for I would really appreciate is just like I need to.

I have a book that I have to write.

Alexis (1:02:46)
Yes, you do.

Chris Davies (1:02:48)
And and I've got an outline, but I actually have to do it. So if you can pray for me for that, I would really appreciate it.

Alexis (1:02:57)
Yes, I will pray for you. Reverend Dr. Chris Davies, thank you so much.

Chris Davies (1:03:04)
Thank you.

Alexis Rice (1:03:07)
Thank you for joining us today on The Sacred Slope. If you'd like to nominate a pastor, priest, or clergy member anywhere in the world, send me an email at Alexis @ thesacredslope.com. Music was by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin, and Sean Spence. May the fruit of the spirit guide you this week. I'm Alexis Rice. Go in peace, friends.