32. Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde (Episcopal) - We Can Be Brave

🎙️ 32. Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde (Episcopal) – We Can Be Brave

It’s not every day you get to sit down with one of your heroes. Bishop Budde has shaped my spiritual life - and my willingness to be brave - in these uncertain times. I hope this episode, my Christmas gift to you, fills you up with the same.
 - Alexis Rice

What does Christian courage look like when fear dominates public life - and love still calls us to show up with dignity?

In this episode of The Sacred Slope, Alexis is joined by Mariann Edgar Budde, Episcopal Bishop of Washington, D.C., and author of the New York Times bestselling book We Can Be Brave, now adapted for young readers and out now from Penguin Young Readers.

Many first encountered Bishop Budde during the National Prayer Service at Washington National Cathedral, when she looked directly at President Trump and made a plea for mercy. In this conversation - and through her book - she places that moment in context, showing how bravery is not a single act, but a lifelong practice shaped by faith, humility, and love.

✨ In this conversation, we explore:

• Why affirming another person’s humanity is moral work
• Mercy, forgiveness, and accountability - without bypassing harm
• How bravery is practiced over a lifetime

✨ An excerpt from Bishop Budde’s sermon at the National Prayer Service at Washington National Cathedral:

“Let me make one final plea, Mr. President. Millions have put their trust in you.
 And as you told the nation yesterday, you have felt the providential hand of a loving God. In the name of our God, I ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country who are scared now. There are gay, lesbian, and transgender children in Democratic, Republican, and Independent families - some who fear for their lives. And the people - the people who pick our crops and clean our office buildings; who labor in poultry farms and meatpacking plants; who wash the dishes after we eat in restaurants and work the night shifts in hospitals - they may not be citizens or have the proper documentation, but the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals. They pay taxes and are good neighbors. They are faithful members of our churches and mosques, synagogues, gurdwaras, and temples. I ask you to have mercy, Mr. President, on those in our communities whose children fear that their parents will be taken away, and that you help those who are fleeing war zones and persecution in their own lands to find compassion and welcome here. Our God teaches us that we are to be merciful to the stranger, for we were all once strangers in this land. May God grant us the strength and courage t

Transcript

Mariann Budde (00:00)
found really heartwarming and a bit frankly surprising is how the moment of that sermon has ⁓ touched a chord in people all across the country and the world and they speak about it still. And what that says to me is that it's not about me or the sermon.

but about what are the values and the aspirations that are right below the surface of so many people and who are feeling that they're just not being spoken of or lived in our public life in a way people hunger for. And so it has affirming effect. It wasn't like I said anything that's

people, but it affirmed something that they knew and were grateful that it was spoken. But it wouldn't have had the impact if it wasn't something that was deep within the people who received it. If that makes sense. know? I it wasn't like somebody said, thank you for pointing that out for me. It's like, no, ⁓ that's how I feel. Or those are the values that I am trying to live by. Or that's my child that you're talking about, right? Or that's who I am.

Alexis Rice (00:59)
Hmm. Yeah.

Mariann Budde (01:14)
I think we minimized to our detriment, Alexis, the power that we have in affirming another person's humanity and their inherent dignity as human beings, which was the whole point of my doing what I did, which was to bring the humanity of people who were being callously dehumanized in public spaces, on social media, and in the political discourse.

by some of the most powerful people in the world. And so to gently but firmly say, you know as well as I that these are human beings and they are not the caricatures that you are describing them as. And that I think whenever we do that for one another in ways large and small, we are strengthening the moral our species, right? Because we're bringing everyone's humanity to the table.

Alexis Rice (02:15)
There has been a lot of intentional fear cast across the United States and across our world this year. Fear used as a tool, fear amplified for power. Fear meant to make people feel small, isolated, and powerless. But scripture tells us something radically different. Perfect love casts out all fear. And if fear is the disease of this moment, then hope is the antidote. We see this pattern everywhere.

in stories, books, and movies, and shows that we admire again and again when we feel hopeless. When people feel powerless, when systems feel immovable, hope emerges through bravery. Sometimes through one person, sometimes through a small group, sometimes through a quiet, steady voice that refuses to abandon love. Hope doesn't arrive fully formed. Hope is practiced.

And I believe bravery is a practice too. Like many of you, I remember watching Bishop Marianne Edgar Budde speak with extraordinary calm and clarity, asking the president of the United States for mercy. Not loudly, not cruelly.

not performatively, but faithfully. Her witness showed me that following Jesus doesn't require domination, outrage, or dehumanization. It requires courage shaped by love. It requires mercy without weakness. It requires treating people as fully human, even when it costs you something. That moment didn't just inspire me. It clarified something deep in my bones.

There is another way to follow Jesus, one grounded in dignity, mercy, courage, and love. That moment, watching faith used to humanize rather than dehumanize, was one of the moments that led me to create the sacred slope. Because

Hope multiplies when it's practiced, because bravery grows when it's modeled, and because love, real love, still has the power to cast out fear.

Today, it is my profound honor to have as a guest, Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde talking about her book, We Can Be Brave, which is already a New York Times bestseller, now adapted for young readers.

I am so excited to share this interview with you. I hope that this gives you inspiration as it has for me to move into 2026.

with some clarity and courage to help build the world that I want to live in. Let's get started.

Alexis Rice (05:44)
Welcome back to the Sacred Slope, friends, where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground. Today, I'm honored to welcome Bishop Marianne Edgar-Budde Hi, Bishop Budde

Mariann Budde (05:56)
be with you. Really good to be with you. Thank you.

Alexis Rice (05:59)
Thank you. Bishop Budde is an Episcopal Bishop of Washington, DC and the author of the New York Times bestseller, We Could Be Brave, now newly adapted as a young reader's edition. So many of you know Bishop Budde because of a moment that captured global attention. At the National Prayer Service following President Trump's inauguration, she stood in the pulpit of Washington National Cathedral, looked directly at the president and asked him to have mercy.

on immigrants and refugees, on LGBTQ children who were afraid, and on people being spoken about with fear and contempt. moment made her widely known because it was clear, pastoral, and courageous. also remarkable is how We Can Be Brave has transcended spaces that often shy away from faith altogether. At a time when many mainstream and even progressive media spaces avoid religious conversations,

It's left a vacuum for conservative Christian voices to dominate. But this book broke through. It has become a cultural touchstone with Bishop Budde appearing on CBS Mornings, and MSNBC's Morning Joe, bringing a faith rooted in conscience, dignity, and love into the public square. not just speaking.

to adults navigating moral exhaustion. She's helping shape the conscience of the next generation. And I am so happy that I get to share this book with my daughters. So Bishop Budde, welcome to the Sacred Slope.

Mariann Budde (07:27)
⁓

thank you. Thank you. And you'll have to tell me how they like it.

Alexis Rice (07:36)
I absolutely will. And are very know. So I'd love to start by asking you, know, many people know you because of that moment at the National Prayer Service. And when you look directly at President Trump and asked him to have mercy on immigrants, on LGBTQ children. And what I love about this book is that it puts that moment in context.

Mariann Budde (07:37)
you

expect very honest feedback. Thank you.

Alexis Rice (08:01)
So it shows how bravery is a series of choices over a lifetime, both in public and in private, right? So I'm curious, what has the impact of that moment had on others based on what you've heard since that time just about a year ago?

Mariann Budde (08:21)
What a great

found really heartwarming and a bit frankly surprising is how the moment of that sermon has ⁓ touched a chord in people all across the country and the world and they speak about it still. And what that says to me is that it's not about me or the sermon.

but about what are the values and the aspirations that are right below the surface of so many people and who are feeling that they were, as you said earlier in your they're just not being spoken of or lived in our public life in a way people hunger for. And so it has affirming effect. It wasn't like I said anything that's

people, but it affirmed something that they knew and were grateful that it was spoken. But it wouldn't have had the impact if it wasn't something that was deep within the people who received it. If that makes sense. know? I it wasn't like somebody said, thank you for pointing that out for me. It's like, no, ⁓ that's how I feel. Or those are the values that I am trying to live by. Or that's my child that you're talking about, right? Or that's who I am.

Alexis Rice (09:25)
Hmm. Yeah.

Mariann Budde (09:40)
I think we minimized to our detriment, Alexis, the power that we have in affirming another person's humanity and their inherent dignity as human beings, which was the whole point of my doing what I did, which was to bring the humanity of people who were being callously dehumanized in public spaces, on social media, and in the political discourse.

by some of the most powerful people in the world. And so to gently but firmly say, you know as well as I that these are human beings and they are not the caricatures that you are describing them as. And that I think whenever we do that for one another in ways large and small, we are strengthening the moral our species, right? Because we're bringing everyone's humanity to the table.

Alexis Rice (10:35)
Hmm, absolutely. write about We Can Be Brave, right? in that preface of the Young Readers Edition, you say, it has never been my intention or desire to be best known for words spoken to or about President Donald J. Trump, yet all Christians have a public role, for we pledge at our baptism to strive for justice and peace and to respect the dignity of

Mariann Budde (10:53)
Right. Right.

Alexis Rice (11:02)
every human being. And I loved that. mean, was baptized very young. I've been a Christian my entire life, have been through several different denominations and versions of Christianity. But wow, you're right. That is what we pledge as Christians. And remembering very And I'm curious, how do you understand that baptismal promise today,

Mariann Budde (11:24)
there is a foundational core conviction certainly at the heart of Christianity Abrahamic faiths and beyond that every person is created in the image of God and so has inherent dignity.

And so to strive to honor that and to recognize and to live by that is our highest aspiration. It's also one of those things that we don't get a lot of training for, if you know what I mean. Like we don't get a lot of, aren't that many tools that can teach us how to do that. So one of the wanted to do in writing the book was to say, look, you there are ways that you, by simply growing up from a baby to an adolescent,

You have had dozens of threshold experiences where you have learned what it feels like to do something brave, right? You know in your bones what it feels like to do something you've never done before and to try and to fail and to try and to fail until one day you succeed, right? Like that's what courage looks like. You know what it feels like when somebody says something that is harmful to you and another person speaks up.

Right? mean, if, and if you haven't seen it personally, you've seen it in public spaces, right? You know what that is like. You know what it would take for you to be that person. Right? So there are these ways that we practice it. And I wanted to surround young people with stories that lifted up examples of what that looks like, both in private and in public. And also to show that many of the people that we might hold up as like icons.

Like to show that they also had a learning curve. They also struggled, they made mistakes, right? All of those things to bring our full humanity into play, right? So nobody thinks it's only for other people, but it's for all of us, you know?

Alexis Rice (13:18)
Hmm. You know,

one of the reasons I loved this audio book is because I got to hear you read it. It's so wonderful. And it really helped me give my children examples, like you said, of courage without exposing them to cruelty that I don't always. So I don't dare to let them see the news because it's just too scary. And it's hard to figure out how do you.

Mariann Budde (13:40)
and

Alexis Rice (13:44)
teach them about what's going on in the world right now without exposing them to such cruelty. And so I was hoping we could read a little bit in page four.

Mariann Budde (13:54)
I'd be happy to. In preparing to speak at this prayer service, among the questions I struggled with was how to say what needed to be said. of course I wondered what might God have to say to us at this moment. And I sought guidance from our sacred texts. How could I issue a gentle but clear warning that prayers for unity mean nothing

if our actions are based in contempt for those who see the world differently. Equally important, how could I humanize those described in sweeping derogatory generalizations and with as much common respect as I could muster, make a plea for mercy?

The main reason I have chosen to remain in the public eye after January 22nd, 2025, give witness to a way of being Christian that recognizes all human beings are created in the image of God and seeks to follow in Jesus's way of love, humility, and compassion.

Alexis Rice (15:01)
you hope children and adults listening alongside them take away from this passage?

Mariann Budde (15:10)
several things. First of all, that there's a lot of wisdom and guidance to be had in all manner of places and sacred scripture is one of them, as is the relationships that surround us, a pool of wisdom and knowledge and moral guidance that we need to draw from. So that's the first thing, right? Like we're not alone in this quest. The second is

that one of the things we learn as human beings as we grow is that part of our task is to pay attention to the gap between what we say and how we act, right? And as a person of faith, that, I mean, nothing made Jesus more angry than those who had religious authority and were hypocrites, right? Who said one thing and did another.

And so part of what it means to be, I would say a decent human being, but also a person of moral courage is to look in the mirror and to tend to the ways that we live that reflect the things that we say are true for us or that we think is important. were the two main takeaways from this.

And I wanted people to know that there is an expression of Christianity that we're not perfect, but we strive to live by these core foundational teachings of Jesus. And they are of love and mercy and forgiveness and justice, that that is true to the heart of God.

Alexis Rice (16:47)
Hmm.

Mariann Budde (16:48)
Yeah, it's a lot, but I was hoping that would come across.

Alexis Rice (16:54)
It does. it makes me think about the millions of people who have left church spaces, who I have a theory. think they're all done with faith, but they feel that there is only one narrow way to be Christian because perhaps that was their local church space or their local community or what they see in media and in the highest.

Mariann Budde (17:01)
Yeah.

Mm.

Alexis Rice (17:22)
places in our government right now.

they don't necessarily feel that they don't want to have a relationship with God. But trying another tradition can feel really overwhelming, right? Trying something completely new that you're not used to. I've even noticed this for myself going from quote, low church to high church, which I didn't even know what that means until I met the high church people.

Mariann Budde (17:51)
What

is that, right?

Alexis Rice (17:53)
so how do you feel like in your own life, what gave you the courage to leave a time, at a space that you felt like you needed to go, but you weren't ready to leave Jesus? And what helped you listen for where the Holy Spirit was calling you?

Mariann Budde (18:01)
Mm-mm.

Right.

Thank you for that.

so many things to think about in what you've just said. But to answer your part you're mentioning is when I chose at age 17 leave the world that I was in in Colorado, which was with my father and my stepmother. And when that family fell apart through divorce, I decided to return to live with my mother. that narrative was a very powerful spiritual

transformation that was happening. was part of a very loving church where I had come to faith that believed quite strongly that we were on the narrow path for salvation and that others who were not on the path with us and pray as we prayed and understand as we understood who Jesus is and what the teachings of scripture are that all of those other people

were doomed to some kind of eternal life of suffering. Never made sense to me. I never fully embraced it, but I never really wanted to argue with it either because I was just finding my way and I love these people and they loved me. But about my life and as I was pondering how I was going to move felt, and I think maybe this is something for your listeners, our listeners to think about.

to listen to what in scripture says that still small voice inside, that there is a way that God speaks to us in the depth of our being. And not every day, not like, you know, not scheduled at 10 o'clock each morning, but just sometimes we are filled with some sense that we're being moved in a given direction. And that happened to me. And it was over against the religious authorities in my life at the time.

But I will say the other thing that helped me across that threshold was my mother who was on the other side. And she was being talked about in ways that I knew were not true to the person I knew her to be, right? And so I was moving into her world and she was worshiping in a completely different tradition, the Episcopal Church as it turns out, my tradition now. And I knew that,

God was not rejecting her, that she was a person of God. And so it helped me make the crossing over. I would think it would be harder, and I feel great compassion for people who don't have an immediate place to land in another tradition. I be listening very carefully to their stories and perhaps asking them, for them and also asking them to pray

for God to reveal a path, right? Because sometimes I think if we ask, people come into our lives that can guide us. A book, a podcast, something will help give us at least a step on where to go. Community is really important. It doesn't have to be in a church, but some kind of community where you are able to experience God's love through the love of other people and also learn

all the things you learn by bumping up against other people and doing things that you do together that you could never do on your own where you learn and grow. I want that for everybody. I want everyone to have ⁓ that sense of community. And it's important to find one that honors your dignity and gives you a place to grow into the fullness that God has created you to be.

Alexis Rice (21:40)
I think I'm taken aback by that a little bit because it breaks my heart for the people that are not in community or have been kicked out of community in church spaces, I remember talking to the Bishop of Iceland, Bishop Gudrun, and we talked about the LGBTQ plus community and she's a very strong advocate for them. And she talked about

Mariann Budde (21:50)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Alexis Rice (22:03)
their safety and she said you should be safe, especially in Christianity. And I think sometimes it just hurts a little bit about thinking about like, what is the point of church these days? if it doesn't embrace all in community so.

Mariann Budde (22:08)
Mm.

Yeah, I hear you. The problem is we're human, right? And we are all huge works in progress and we have a lot of blind spots and we, the close, you know, we hurt each other. I mean, that is simply true. so, and I'm not suggesting that people stay in abusive places. I'm not saying, but I'm just saying there's no perfect church is all I'm saying. And there's no perfect family. There's no, there is all of those things, but to be committed to the path. ⁓

also says we hold ourselves accountable when we fail. Like if I let you down, and I have let people down, I'm not proud of that, but I know it's true, I've hurt people, but to own it and to say, in that moment, I violated something that is precious to me as a principle of faith and dignity, and I want to do whatever I can to make it right. And I'm not expecting perfection from you, you may hurt me.

that's the cost of human intimacy of any kind. But at the same time, to have a sense of if I, particularly if I have that transgressive power, there needs to be a way for me to be held accountable. I mean, I'm sure there are blind spots in all of our churches now to recognize that someday.

we will be embarrassed, if not ashamed of assumptions that we're holding now that God will reveal to us were less than worthy of other human beings. And so just to know that that's part of the story. So if you raise your hand and say, I'm sorry, I feel, and then you say how you feel, you're not met with rejection, but with a genuine ear for listening.

Alexis Rice (23:56)
don't know if you've noticed this, but I feel like in recent weeks, even especially in the United States, many Christians, even some longtime supporters of the current administration are actually waking up to the cruelty that they once excused, while others have been naming this harm for years and are carrying this deep grief about it continuing on.

I was curious if you've noticed that too. And I was thinking about drawing on Jesus's teachings how do you invite us to practice brave forgiveness for people who are right now waking up to the harm might have contributed to without excusing what's happening, without bypassing accountability, without asking those who were harmed to carry the burden of reconciliation. I was just curious if you could teach us a little bit about

brave forgiveness.

Mariann Budde (24:50)
That's a really good question. me say two Forgiveness comes from a place of strength and power. requirements or the requisites of forgiveness is an internal the imbalance of power. It doesn't have to be physical power, it doesn't have to be positional power, but some kind of of a

kind of authority, right? A way of saying, been given grace and power to extend forgiveness, whether or not you deserve it, ask for it, or as a means of reconciliation, right? Like that is a grace and a power that's given to me. And there are no shortcuts around that. ask ourselves to forgive people if we are still really wounded, hurting, feeling

all of the emotions that come with being hurt, right? It takes time. And I think God knows that, that it takes time. And it's possible. And it can happen. And so when that happens, then the other part of it is a rather humble recognition, looking back, as there's some self-awareness that's necessary to say, okay, Marianne, let's think about the times when...

you in your blindness or prejudice said or did things that were hurtful. When people forgave you, right? You know, as Jesus said, forgive us our trespasses forgive others, but there's also the other side. It's as we've been forgiven, know, forgive as you've been forgiven. So if I've known what it feels like to receive forgiveness, it makes it more likely that I will be able to give it.

So two things are part of the journey. One is regaining some sense of power and authority, dignity that allows for that. Second, some humble self-awareness that we all stand in I may not have needed forgiveness today, but I might need it tomorrow, or I sure as heck needed it a year ago, right? That kind of mutuality.

which is why mercy is such an important biblical concept because mercy is also you extend mercy when you are in a position to do so, but it also acknowledges that we all stand in the need of mercy. so some reciprocity to it that is sometimes missed in our sort of more linear understanding of things.

Alexis Rice (27:11)
mercy and forgiveness are really core tenets of Christianity, correct? And so those are, if those are missing from a faith tradition, ⁓ that's

Mariann Budde (27:16)
Absolutely.

But it's Yeah. Yeah, it's

big deal. But it's also not something that you can shake your finger and say you must forgive or you must have mercy. It comes from a different place. Right. And that, think, is where grace and that internal spiritual reservoir that we are given that can be protected and cultivated in community that says, am in a position.

Alexis Rice (27:28)
Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Mariann Budde (27:43)
And the other thing is I don't want to carry, as Martin Luther King says, it just takes too much energy to carry it around. So I'm going to release you from that. I'm not going to let you harm me again, but I will, I'll let it go. but yes, it is, know, from the cross, he said, forgive them, right? From the cross, which is a level of forgiveness that I think, you know, that's, that's why he's Jesus, right? I mean, that's a, that's a, that's a high bar.

Not all of us can do that. Step by step, practicing. It's the other forgiveness. One thing that's true about this particular administration is that there is no grievance that has not been held onto with like just a tight fist. And if you walk in the world, just feeling aggrieved all the lash out as opposed to recognizing

all human and we need to give each other some space to be human, right? We get to make mistakes and learn from them.

Alexis Rice (28:42)
going to ask you one question from my daughter, Emma. She is 10 years old. She is a fifth grader. And I will read it word for word. she says, how do you define mercy and how does God define mercy, not just kindness or love?

Mariann Budde (28:45)
Okay.

What?

Alexis Rice (29:05)
but how mercy actually shows up in the world. What feels the same between how you define mercy and how God does and what might be different?

Mariann Budde (29:16)
Wow.

What's your daughter's name? Emma. Emma, what a... Extra credit question. Well, so let me see if I hear it correctly. So part of it is what distinguishes our mercy from God's mercy? And then how is it different from forgiveness and

Alexis Rice (29:20)
Emma.

Mariann Budde (29:41)
First of all, let me say, I think are a lot of overlaps in meaning. So to pull the threads out, forgiveness, love, mercy, there's a lot that they have in common, right? So they're not mutually exclusive categories. So I would say that. The part about mercy that comes to me is, as I said earlier, when you are in a position to offer mercy to someone, you actually have the power to release them.

from a burden. You have the power to make life easier for them. You have the power to be a blessing to them in a concrete way that spares them the consequences of something that may or may not have been their fault, but they're dealing with it anyway. And in your position, whatever position you're in, your mercy allows them to be free from whatever burden that is, right?

But as I said before, you may stand in the need of mercy today, I may stand in the need of mercy tomorrow, and you may be in a position to do the same for me. So it's not, now, if I'm the queen and I've got all these subjects and I've got all the power, you might say that I'm the one who's dispensing mercy. But in God's economy, we're all standing in the need of some mercy. We're all standing in the need.

graciousness that allows us to make mistakes and not be destroyed by them. That allows us to fall and get back up again. That allows us not to be defined as Bryan Stevenson says, not to be defined by the worst things we've done or the worst things we've said. somebody can hold onto that and really make us pay for it, or they can help us learn from it and move on.

And so for me, those are the distinctions. can't speak for God, but when I think about how God shows, how God is described as full of mercy and loving kindness. You see, even the, it's almost like mercy and loving kindness. It's like all this package, can come before God and not cower in fear, even when we've done something or said something that we really regret, right?

I hope that helps a little bit, Emma. It's a really good question.

Alexis Rice (31:59)
Thank you. She's going to be so excited.

Mariann Budde (32:02)
we have a lovely prayer in the Book of Common Prayer, it's a prayer for young people. of the lines is, help them to see failure, not as a measure of their worth, but as a chance for a new start. And I think in some ways there is always the fear that when we fail or when we're disappointed or when life

goes in a way that just are struggling It feels like an expression of, like it's a symbol of our worth, right? And it's not, in God's eyes, it's not that. That that worth in us is non-negotiable, right? And that with God, there is always a chance for a new start, no matter what. feel like that's a really important message for all of us, but especially young people in the culture that we're in now. It's really important for them to hear.

Alexis Rice (32:27)
Yes.

Yeah.

right, well, we're going to turn page 99. And we're going to talk about somebody who you already brought up, which is Martin Luther King Jr.

Mariann Budde (32:53)
Mm-hmm.

In his last speech, King began by imagining aloud what he would say if God gave him the opportunity to choose another century in which to live. His response to God was that he would in fact choose the present moment. It was a strange thing to consider at a time of so much suffering, he said, but I know somehow that only when it is dark enough can you see the stars.

He acknowledged the threats he received each day and the uncertainty of what lay ahead. Like anybody, I would like to live a long life, he added. Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. Like Moses before him, God had brought King to the mountaintop to see the promised land. I may not get there with you, he said, but I want you to know tonight that we as a people

will get to the promised land. And I'm happy tonight. I'm not fearing any man. Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord. His final prediction was one of acceptance, even transcendence of death. King was assassinated the next day. The sense of destiny that King's parents instilled in him

and that he lived at a pivotal moment of social transformation sustained him to the end, even when it became obvious that he would not live to see the dream God had placed in his heart. Although often discouraged, King refused to succumb to violence or to give up hope. He accepted what he could not change and thrust all his effort into changing what he could.

King's compassion never fails to move me.

Alexis Rice (34:58)
Can you talk a little bit about what this means to you?

Mariann Budde (35:01)
Well, several things. I would love each young person to believe, and on each you and I to believe, that there is a certain destiny to our lives, that there are particular things that you and I and all of summoned to live fully and completely, and that a big part of our life

is getting even a glimpse of what that is. And we don't have to have complete clarity, right? But just a little bit of a glimpse of like, oh, I'm here, or that's why I'm here today, or that's why this is happening, right? So that I can do this. And King's example instilled that in me, hope it stills it in all of us, right? The other thing that

he has for us is a reminder that the moment that we live in has a particular reality to it that we have to embrace and accept. And we may not, we may have wished for another one. You we would have wanted something else to be true, but this is where we are and this is where we find ourselves and that our life is gonna be lived in this moment, right? What we're doing. So the second. And the third, which is his compassion.

never turned away from people who were suffering. And he always cast his lot with people whose human rights and legal rights were being trampled on. And there is something so empowering about a life that is lived in proximity suffering.

one of my favorite stories of King, and I think it's elsewhere in the book, is when he preaches on the Good Samaritan, right? The story of the Good Samaritan, the man who was left for dead on the roadside, Jesus tells, and these two religious guys walk by, don't do anything, and then someone of a despised race stops and helps him, saves his life. And what King says about that is that two men, the religious people who walked by, they saw the man and they asked the question,

What will happen to me if I stop to help him? What will happen to me if I stop to help this man? Whereas the Samaritan turned it around and said, if I don't stop to help him, what will happen to him? And that for me is the reversal, right? That puts us in relationship to other people to say, if I don't show up, if I don't do this thing, what will happen for the people

Alexis Rice (37:24)
Mm.

Mariann Budde (37:38)
whose very lives might in some way be influenced if I show up and would be harmed in some way or at least not benefited if I choose to hang back.

the other thing, Alexis, remember he was also a human being, right? He wasn't some kind of, you know, walking, he made mistakes, all kinds of struggles, he got discouraged. I mean, all of those things are also true about him. So we don't need to hold him up on a pedestal just because he's this famous icon in our life. He was a real human being. And that gives us permission to be human too. So we get to do this, our very human-ness.

Alexis Rice (38:11)
Yes.

Mariann Budde (38:14)
and God shows up and helps us to become who we're called to be.

Alexis Rice (38:24)
we are going to turn to.

Page 111, and this is about Bishop Michael Curry.

Mariann Budde (38:31)
Mmm.

Alexis Rice (38:32)
because I've been in the Episcopalian tradition now don't know if I feel like a visitor or a member after five years, it's been really learn about Bishop Curry my priest And also how they think about you and priest, a female, wears the t-shirt Troublesome Priest in honor of you, by the way, at church sometimes, which I love. So great.

Mariann Budde (38:48)
Thank

Absolutely.

Alexis Rice (38:53)
since Bishop Michael Curry's election as the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church in 2015, he has won love and respect across the world.

His sermon for the royal wedding of Prince Harry and Meghan Markle in 2018 inspired the two billion people who heard his message of the power of love. We were made by a power of love and our lives are meant to be lived in that love. That's why we're here, he said, addressing the young couple, the family gathered to celebrate the love and everyone looking on from around the globe. Curry invited us all to imagine a world

Mariann Budde (39:13)
Right.

Alexis Rice (39:32)
guided by unselfish sacrificial love, where no child will go hungry ever again, poverty will become history, and we will lay down our swords and shields and study war no more. As he spoke, we all wanted that kind of world and to be the kind of people to usher that world into being. That's Bishop Curry's gift.

How he came to be our presiding bishop with a global platform for his message of love is another example of stepping up to the plate.

Mariann Budde (40:06)
Hmm.

Alexis Rice (40:07)
Bishop Budde, why do sermons so deeply rooted in Jesus like Bishop Michael Curry's, like sermons that you give, feel so radical right now? Why is this disorienting not only for Christians, but also for people outside church who are watching Christian witness so closely?

Mariann Budde (40:27)
You know, it's probably always radical Alexis. it's always radical. sacrificial love Is what it is. It's sacrificial. So don't want to overstate the distance between where we are today and where others have lived their lives in other times and places But what is different now?

is that there are many expressions of Christianity that have a lot of authority and a lot of money and a lot of influence that focus on the warrior Jesus the Jesus who says I've come not to bring peace but a sword and there are a few passages very few actually

But there are a few passages where Jesus has more of a confrontational tone because of his confrontation with the religious authorities of his day. And there is a version of Christianity that actually speaks about Jesus very little and focuses more on some of passages in biblical texts to deal with warring peoples, right? And sort of the whole history of humankind that is recorded in those texts. And so I think it's confusing.

have religious people and religious leaders talking about other human beings in categories that are so unloving. And doing so feeling like faith justifies or that they are doing so as Christians. Now keep in mind, Christians did that during the era of slavery. Christians did that during the era of Jim Crow. Christians did that during

time of the crusades. So it's not new, but it has a new face now. It has a pretty virulent, almost militaristic face to it. Now that's not all of evangelical Christianity. it's a broad tent and I know And yet is cause for real concern

when Christianity attaches itself to a group of people that actually have a lot of power, speak of themselves as being aggrieved and needing to be protected against a lot of other people that are defined as evil. And whenever you start having conversations where you're the good people and they're the evil people, you run into some real problems with the teachings of Jesus just can't go there.

That's just not how he sees us. He sees the capacity for good and for evil in all of us and for the kind of life that reflects more of the love and mercy of God rather than the more instincts are self-protective. that's what I would say. It's confusing, but it's not new. It's just that it's new right now in its power.

Those of us who are not as powerful right now, but have a determination live out a different understanding of what it means to follow Jesus, I feel like we have a responsibility to stay in public conversation, but not become mean ourselves, right? not to be the mirror of what we are, trying provide an alternative for, right? So we can't as,

So many have said, know, hate does not drive out hate. Only love does that. darkness does not drive out darkness. So a big responsibility to meet this moment with love and a willingness to engage also to protect as much as can be protected right now.

Alexis Rice (43:50)
Bishop Budde, before we close, there are a lot of people all around the world who listen the sacred slope. now in over 40 countries and over 700 cities. lot of people who listen have come from all different

faith backgrounds, but may not be going to church right now and haven't been prayed over in a long time. was wondering if you would be willing to offer a prayer for those people who haven't been prayed over in a long time.

Mariann Budde (44:09)
Hmm.

It's my honor. Let's take a moment.

Gracious and loving God.

mindful of the ways that technology reaches across time and space to connect us.

for which I marvel and give you thanks. I hold before you all those who are within the sound of my voice and who have been listeners of this podcast.

And I would ask that you give each one a palpable sense of your love for them.

that you protect them from unnecessary harm.

that in their most uncertain moments, you assure them of your guiding hand.

and that you would place in their lives people who love and support them.

as they make their way.

And a particular Lord for those who are.

starting out in life with all the uncertainties and opportunities that young life holds.

I would ask for a vision, the vision that you planted in their souls at their birth, that you would reveal that to them in time and in ways that they can follow so that they know beyond a doubt that they are here for a reason. To love and to be loved. To receive and to give blessing.

and to contribute to the goodness and the healing of this world. Thank you for them. Thank you for each one.

And may we all know the grace of your blessing this day.

In Jesus name I pray. Amen.

Alexis Rice (46:56)
Amen. Bishop Budde, thank you so much for being with us today on the sacred slope.

Mariann Budde (47:03)
My pleasure. Lovely to meet you. Thank you so much for the invitation.

Alexis Rice (47:08)
And I have one final question for you. What do you like to do for fun?

Mariann Budde (47:10)
Okay.

⁓ lots of

things. I love to ride my bike. I love to cook dinner for my family. I love to hang out with my grandchildren.

Alexis Rice (47:23)
That's so wonderful. Thank you so much

Mariann Budde (47:24)
Yeah.

Thank you. Likewise.

Alexis Rice (47:27)
Thank you for joining us today on The Sacred Slope. If you'd like to nominate a pastor, priest, or clergy member anywhere in the world, send me an email at Alexis @ thesacredslope.com. Music was by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin, and Sean Spence. May the fruit of the spirit guide you this week. I'm Alexis Rice. Go in peace, friends.