31. Rev. Elizabeth Ashman Riley (Episcopal) – Rage Prayers & What to Expect at an Episcopal Church

🎙️ 31. Rev. Elizabeth Ashman Riley (Episcopal) – Rage Prayers & What to Expect at an Episcopal Church

What if the holiest prayer you could pray wasn’t polite at all—but a full-body, honest, angry, “Are you seeing this, God?!”

In this episode of The Sacred Slope, Rev. Elizabeth Ashman Riley (@therevriley), Episcopal priest & author of Rage Prayers, invites us to bring our whole selves—grief, fury, doubt, and all—to God. We talk about queer-affirming faith, the beauty of small Episcopal communities, and what newcomers can expect when they step inside an Episcopal church for the first time.

✨ In this conversation, we explore:
• Elizabeth’s call story in a tiny Alaskan village
• 20+ years of Episcopal debates around queer inclusion
• Why “Jesus loves you, but…” is not the Gospel
• The surprising, viral origin of Rage Prayers
• How to write your own rage prayers (and why God can handle them)
• What it’s really like to attend an Episcopal church—rituals, liturgy, community
• The gift of small, intergenerational churches where people actually notice you
• A closing prayer for anyone who hasn’t been prayed over in a long time

✨ What to Expect at an Episcopal Church
If you’re coming from non-denominational or megachurch spaces, an Episcopal church may feel smaller, quieter, more ancient—and more intimate. Expect ritual and scripture, weekly communion, candles, responses, and a community that knows your name. Expect belonging without condition, space for questions, and a faith shaped by love over fear.

💡 Key takeaways
• God is not fragile—your full emotions and doubts are welcome
• Rage can clarify what matters most
• Queer-affirming, justice-centered churches exist
• You deserve a church that doesn’t confuse “neutrality” with love
• Faith can be rebuilt with honesty, curiosity, and courage

📚 Resources Mentioned
• Rage Prayers – Elizabeth Ashman Riley
• Father Lizzie McManus-Dail – God Didn't Make Us to Hate Us @rev.lizzie
• April Ajoy – Star Spangled Jesus – @aprilajoyr
• Erin Hicks Moon – I’ve Got Questions – @erinhmoon
• Church Clarity – @churchclarity
• The New Evangelicals – @thenewevangelicals
• Theology Beer Camp - @theologybeercamp
• Tripp Fuller - @trippfuller
•  Adam Clark - @adamclk

Transcript

Alexis Rice (00:00)
Something I learned blew my mind and I want talk about it with you. he said since he was raised in Episcopalian he went into seminary and met people from more denominations. They had asked him when was the moment he had been saved, when he prayed the sinner's prayer, right? From stepping over and he looked at them like deer in the headlights, like, what are you talking about?

Elizabeth Riley (00:03)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Alexis Rice (00:24)
and they

looked at him as a deer in a headlights, like, how have you not done that? So heard that, that was one of those moments to deconstruct and go, I've been told my whole life that the only way you can be a Christian is you've got to get people to pray the sinner's prayer, to save their souls, to get into heaven. And I would love to about the Episcopal tradition, the history of it in terms of like,

Elizabeth Riley (00:26)
Yeah. Like what are you talking about?

Alexis Rice (00:50)
Is that a thing? ⁓ there? that.

Elizabeth Riley (00:51)
Yeah, no, we do not So

whole personal salvation thing very much comes from the Evangelical and Fundamentalist the United my understanding, could be wrong, you're gonna have a listener who gets on here and tells us all about ancient Evangelical movement. in mind, infant baptism didn't start

Alexis Rice (01:06)
it's okay, bring it on, correct us and we're

Elizabeth Riley (01:12)
until the Middle Ages and we had the plague and had infant deaths happening. You used to have to be an adult to make profession of baptism started and it became much more prominent that people were born into their faith, baptized as children. the Episcopal Church we have this interesting little mix where we do practice infant baptism and adult

also have the practice of confirmation where someone gets to make an adult of their faith, so if someone was baptized as a baby and baptismal vows made on their behalf by someone else, they get to go and claim that faith. my experience, the Episcopal Church does not have altar calls. have only figured out what the sinner's prayer is by talking

my ex-evangelical buddies. So it's a very separate, thing. And I think most closest we get to it might be in some of our summer camp culture. There's definitely been, I think, places where some of that seeped in a little bit, but not to the evangelical viewpoint.

that idea of the personal salvation I find so interesting because it seems to me

be very caught up in the psychology fear-based faith, right? This fear of damnation, this fear of other people's damnation.

our former presiding bishop talks about us being the Episcopal branch of the Jesus movement. And I love that because we are just one part of a much bigger thing. And so

I love that the Episcopal Church really works to honor that and respect that and to create space for there are going to be other ways in which people find God and find what salvation is for them. Thankfully, I have not encountered in the Episcopal Church anyone talking about why we should fear hell or anything like that. And that's...

It's not part of the... I mean, I'm sure there are places that are, but it's a whole lot more about God being love, why I love being in this church.

Alexis Rice (03:09)
What? ⁓

Alexis Rice (03:26)
Welcome to the sacred slope, where the slippery slope meets sacred ground. I'm Alexis Rice. What if the most honest prayer you've ever prayed wasn't polite at all? What if it was raw, furious, Today's guest, Reverend Elizabeth Ashman Riley, is an Episcopal priest and the author of Rage Prayers. Reverend Riley's

online ministry has become a lifeline for tens of thousands of people were told their anger and questions made them bad Christians. Her rage prayer videos and digital ministry have reached a huge audience across TikTok and Instagram, where she says, you can yell at God, you're allowed to be furious, God can handle it, and God still loves you.

And here's what's wild, especially for so many of us coming out of evangelical spaces, Reverend Riley never really had to deconstruct. She grew up in a church that was already moving toward queer inclusion, where Jesus loves you, didn't have a but attached at the end, and where justice and welcome were just normal. Her kids are being raised in that kind of a church. Can you even imagine?

Can you imagine your children growing up in a community where if they came out, their priest and their church would already know exactly what to say? You are beloved, full stop. For those of you listening who are yearning for a new kind of spiritual community, a smaller church, maybe an Episcopal parish, something that feels very different from maybe the mega church world that you left, I want to gently challenge you as we start this conversation.

Let your mind and your heart stay open. Unlearning is hard. Sometimes we get into our lizard brains and they cling to what's familiar, even when we've already decided that we don't want that anymore. This episode is an invitation to consider that there are churches where your doubts, your values, your politics, your queerness, your grief,

Your presence as a strong female leader and yes, your rage are not problems to fix, but part of what you bring to God. So with all that in mind, let's step into a different kind of conversation about prayer, church, and what it means to bring your whole self to God. Here is Reverend Elizabeth Ashman Riley and the sacred liberating practice of rage prayers.

Alexis Rice (06:42)
Welcome back friends. What if prayer didn't need to be polite to be sacred? What if the most powerful thing you could say to God was your honest, unfiltered anger? This week on The Sacred Slope, we are joined by Reverend Elizabeth Ashman Riley, Episcopal priest, author of Rage Prayers, and a trailblazer in reclaiming emotional authenticity in prayer. Hi, Elizabeth. Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Elizabeth Riley (07:09)
Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Alexis Rice (07:12)
Elizabeth was licensed through the Diocese of Olympia she holds a BA in theology from St. Mary's College of California and an MDiv from the Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley. Her journey from Alaska to the seminary to viral TikToks has created a movement.

encouraging people to bring their sorrow, fury, and grief before God and discover peace on the other side. So Reverend Riley, Elizabeth, welcome to the Sacred Slope. Thank you so much for having me and for talking about Rage Prayers

Elizabeth Riley (07:41)
Thank you so much for having me and for talking about Rage Prayers.

Alexis Rice (07:46)
the moment that made you decide that you wanted to spend your one wild and precious life in ministry.

Elizabeth Riley (07:54)
I love talking about this because it was actually in the midst of this church division that I felt my calling. there were these little sparks of rage prayer there. when I found the Episcopal Church, I stumbled into it in middle school and really found a place of belonging and welcome just in the midst of the awkwardness of middle school and became incredibly involved, so much so that I was elected as a delegate to diocesan convention.

And this was when the Episcopal Church was starting its really public discourse about same-sex marriage, LGBT inclusion, ⁓ whether or not people who are gay can be ordained. This was before Jane Robinson was ordained a bishop in 2003. And so this was a highly debated topic at convention. And ⁓ I enjoyed a good debate. I had no problem.

arguing back and pushing back against viewpoints that I found to be unwelcoming and unrepresentative of the Episcopal Church. But in the midst of all that discourse and division, when it sort of felt like, we're really fractured as a community, like it doesn't feel like we're one. We came together and we had complin. And keep in mind, like I'm in Alaska. We're in Kotzebue, Alaska. It's this little village, super north.

And we come together, we're squeezed into this tiny chapel space and everyone held hands together and prayed. And we were siblings in Christ. And that was bigger than the division. It didn't erase the division. It did not require us to get on the same page or sweep anything under the rug.

that Jesus was big enough for us to hold those differing viewpoints, but still to pray together and to be siblings in Christ. And I wanted that. I wanted that for the rest of my life. And I went and told my priest that I felt called and he was incredibly supportive. And I started this path at 15. And it's been wild and wonderful and unexpected.

But that presence of Christ in division ⁓ was really the thing that drew me to this calling.

Alexis Rice (10:16)
Hmm. And tell me a little bit about when was this because it sounds so funny in the context of today, right? That must feel kind of strange to you.

Elizabeth Riley (10:28)
Right, like this

feels like it's ancient history. Like we dealt with this, but clearly it's still a very contemporary issue. So Gene Robinson was ordained in 2003 as a bishop, first openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church. This conversation was happening, I want to say, in like 2002. So we're talking 23 years ago that we're having this discourse about queer inclusion. We're not using the word queer yet at that time.

And so in many ways, I sort of was like, well, the Episcopal Church has figured this out. And that hasn't been the case. I mean, in many ways, I think the Episcopal Church has gone much further than others and not as far as some. I wouldn't say that the Church is of one mind throughout the world or country, ⁓ but it's wild. We're still having these same debates 20 years later.

Alexis Rice (11:23)
you know what I'd love to learn about it gone? ⁓ yeah, there just seems to be so many prominent, more conservative leaning churches that happen to be a little bit more dominating right now in the discourse. so it, and,

Elizabeth Riley (11:28)
those 23 years been?

Alexis Rice (11:45)
almost all of them that I can think of are not queer affirming. And it seems to me that there is this big fear these churches would actually be more open and accepting to people as they are, as God made them in God's image in the queer community, that the church would fall apart or something, or that we're letting some sin in the door

that shouldn't be there or the church will go completely off the rocker or maybe just dismantle. I don't know. There's all these crazy fears that, yes. And so I'd love to just hear about the last 23 years in the Episcopal Church and what kind of, I'm going to say it, I'm going to say it because I'm going to Episcopal Church now, what kind of blessings that brings and that has brought. But also,

Elizabeth Riley (12:17)
Yeah, lightning will strike us.

Alexis Rice (12:35)
it hasn't, what's it been like?

Elizabeth Riley (12:38)
I mean, the inclusion of everyone in the body of Christ is always a blessing to frustration is that it feels like it's taken us even since 2003. It feels like we're still dragging some people kicking and screaming towards inclusion, which breaks my incredibly thankful that I was raised in a household of all people

queer, straight, anything in between was never a question, it was a given. And so I was never going to be in a church that didn't preach that. It was so deep within me, even by middle school, that if I had heard a message of hate, it's something I would have just left. And so it's not something that I've ever wrestled with. Like personally, the God who loves me loves

everyone regardless of their sexuality, regardless of their gendered identity, regardless of their skin color. And so watching other people struggle with that, think some ways, I mean, I was so young when I joined the church where I was like, why is this a problem for some of you? Just like, you know, my little teenage self, like, this is fine. Like Jesus preached love and this should be easy.

we were talking a little bit before we started recording, you know, I served in the Bay Area for 13 years, right? Or I went to my undergraduate and graduate school. So like there is a particular level of inclusion that comes from being in ⁓ communities that are so intentionally queer welcoming and queer friendly. mean, the identity of the Diocese of California has been so rooted in being allies during the AIDS epidemic.

speaking out for gay rights. And so in my ministry, I have had privilege to serve in areas that have been much further along than many other places. And so I've watched colleagues and friends who have had to walk through much harder paths of preaching or fighting for queer inclusion in areas where it's much more divisive. It doesn't matter if the Episcopal Church

on a global level has come to one decision, it doesn't mean that every church the South or East Coast ways of being are jumping on board with rainbow flags hanging from the sanctuary. I think, has been a much slower process than my teenage self.

expected. One of the blessings that I experienced within all this, went to a program called Youth Theological Initiative when I was in high school. a program at Emory, absolutely wonderful, highly recommend it. it's ecumenical. are lot denominations present. And during that time when I was there, I was 17 when I attended, I was speaking to someone who is

an out gay man in a church that was not yet welcoming of queer identity for people who are ordained. And I was like, well, just become an Episcopalian. Like, we're fine with it. Like, come over here. he said to me, but if I leave, nothing changes. And that's always stood out to me that there are

places of advocacy and the work for change that we're going to end up fighting. And sometimes it would be easier to leave and give up on these institutions that seem like they're so behind. But if everyone who thinks that way leaves these institutions we love won't change and reflect more the image of Christ. And so even in the midst of times being incredibly frustrated by the church of like, how are we

still arguing over this. I love it and it is a place where I've encountered Christ and a place I deeply believe others can encounter Christ. And so in the staying and staying engaged in the discourse and it engaged in, you know, when different generations are arguing over, you know, well, my day it was different. That's worth staying in that conversation because I love this place and I love this church and I love this quirkiness even when it drives me.

absolutely insane some days.

Alexis Rice (16:58)
So it's safe to say that it's been incredible to have queer people being able to openly attend and serve in church spaces.

Elizabeth Riley (17:10)
you did say openly serving and attending because I was going to say queer people are always at church. It's just whether or not we're allowing them to be open and affirming. tell you one of the blessings I've gotten to encounter at the place I'm currently serving is we have a parishioner who has been transitioning in adulthood and they've been raised in this congregation their entire life.

Alexis Rice (17:16)
yes.

Exactly.

Elizabeth Riley (17:30)
And for Trans Day of Visibility, they gave a sermon about what it was like to be raised in a church where they could transition openly and be so affirmed and to be so loved. And like, that's not a sermon that gets preached at every church, where someone can talk about so loved and so welcomed that the church is a place they feel like they get to be their whole self. There are way too many sermons in the world of the other thing.

of the I came out and was completely rejected by my church and my congregation and my place. So I take a lot of pride in being a place where we get to be different and write new stories and allow people to live into their full identity. And I just hope more and more Episcopal churches and Christian churches can start to really embrace that calling and that identity.

Alexis Rice (18:17)
Amen. Yes. Well, with more people like you, it's going to become a little bit easier and more voices. thank you for sharing a little bit about that. you know, another one of the reasons that I wanted to be in a church, most of the churches that I had been going to, even as an adult, not queer for me, even though I was. always felt like a conflict to me. It always felt really tough.

I have so many queer friends all around the world and I love them and know them I always felt not great. It really felt kind of awful that I was in church spaces that like if they came, like of course, you know, they would be welcomed by people and people would shake their hands and...

be nice and all that, but in the end, if they would have come and they would have stayed, they would have been met by people in general who would not have been affirming of them, So if they would have come with their partners, right? And they wouldn't have been able to hold hands in the pews, right?

Elizabeth Riley (19:17)
That knowledge is...so the stance of lot of churches who aren't welcoming, that's somewhat hidden. It's like a few levels deep on the website, right? Like there's not going to be anything like, marriage is only between a man and a woman on the front page. It's going to have to be five levels down once you click through the couples, small groups, and all that sort of stuff. And so that's always a piece that bothers me, is these churches that

Alexis Rice (19:26)
Yes. Right.

Elizabeth Riley (19:46)
aren't going to ultimately be accepting of that, but also have this incredible hospitality so that like it traps people, it puts them in unsafe situations where you can't know the real identity or the real values of a house of worship. And I think it's done a lot of harm.

Alexis Rice (20:09)
Yeah, it absolutely has, it continues to. And now that I'm in a space that is fully queer inclusive, I think one of the reasons that it was also so important to me is I have children and they might come out someday. And if I raise them in Christian church space a church community around them and they come out, I want that experience for them that they are supported and loved.

Elizabeth Riley (20:34)
Hmm?

Alexis Rice (20:35)
also by their reverands also by their church leaders, That say messages to them that you are beloved and made in the image of God, Not that you're, all the other stuff.

Elizabeth Riley (20:46)
I ditto all of those things. I do think so. I've had this experience, especially being in an Episcopal church that's working very hard to be progressive or to do this work for the marginalized, that we can get into this false assumption that everyone has heard of the Episcopal church or everyone's doing this or acting this way. And that was a big discovery for me doing social media ministry is the number

Alexis Rice (21:09)
Hmm

Elizabeth Riley (21:11)
people who had never encountered a Christian who had a positive queer message, who had never seen a woman in a collar, who had never heard of the Episcopal Church. I know in my congregation and my community, it's like, well, everyone's heard of us. It's like, no, they really haven't. This thing that I sometimes take for granted, that I can go to

any Episcopal church in Washington and most of the time will find a woman at the altar. But there are many, to think through it, like as I'm saying, like, is that right? But like, there are a lot of women clergy here. And certainly we have a lot of male clergy, but we take for granted the fact that there are a lot of places that don't have that experience. And so the gift of social media

Alexis Rice (21:46)
Wow.

Elizabeth Riley (22:01)
and I think I've gotten to meet all these incredible people online and you've had so many of them on your podcast, which is amazing and I love seeing their faces come across my feed, is we actually get to get our messages out of the pews and reach these communities that don't have access to these congregations, that have never had an opportunity to even ask what the Episcopal Church is. I mean, I had someone ask if it's a Christian denomination on one of my threads, which is like,

Alexis Rice (22:28)
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Riley (22:31)
Episcopalians laugh because we're waspy and think we're the center of the universe sometimes, but it's like, unless you're the Catholic Church, the Christian denominations sort of meld together. So it's been this huge gift to get to do ministry online, not that want all ministry to be online, but to be this doorway for people way of being in relationship with Jesus.

that is truly reflective of love and compassion and the welcome that I think Christ intended and that I want our churches to reflect. But so many people have not had that encounter. It's Jesus loves you, but here are all the things about you, you need to change, is too often the message of predominant Christianity.

Alexis Rice (23:20)
Yes. And what I love so much that you have taken that leap of faith you are a reverend of your own local church, but you also have a thriving online social media ministry, I love it. I love it so much. It's so important because in media often in these spaces right now,

most Christian theology leans conservative, which lens, it's a perfectly valid lens, right? But it's only one lens, right? And so I'd love to just hear a little bit more what you've learned experienced through your social media ministry and why you find that that's so important to you.

Elizabeth Riley (23:51)
Hmm?

been an incredible journey, one, getting to meet so many colleagues and friends and just connect with incredible fellow authors and clergy and people of other As I was saying before, it truly has allowed the message of the Church and that evangelism, the telling the good news as we've encountered it, to people who would not encounter it without

trying, right? Like, no one's accidentally going to show up at church on a Sunday morning. Like, there's a level of intention that goes into that. But someone could accidentally have me come across their FYP, their For You page on TikTok. one person comment. They said, whenever you had videos of you in your collar, I scrolled past because you were a priest and I didn't want to listen to you. But you had a video once where you were in civvies, no collar on.

and I listened and realized you weren't crazy and then I actually wanted to follow you!

So this person had tried to avoid me. They're never going to walk into a church, but I can build some trust and relationship with a little bit of online ministry. Will it ever lead them to church? No idea. That's between them and God. if we're not taking this opportunity to open doorways and to share our message and to

Alexis Rice (25:06)
Yeah.

Elizabeth Riley (25:30)
impact a generation and communities that are rightfully skeptical of Christians, right? I don't blame this guy. I scroll past a lot of clergy, right? Like, I don't want like a theology bro telling me like how to interpret Genesis. So like, I'm pretty skeptical of like what who I'm going to listen to when it comes to theology as well. So it's been a place where I've gotten to build up trust and community to

Do some of that ministry of healing, of telling people that they are beloved and worthy and children of God, of standing in spaces where we've needed to say, the church messed up and harmed people. And I don't expect everyone to forgive the church for that. Like, I think some people's healing might take them away from the church. And sin is on the church that did the harm.

not on the people who can't get past it. getting to do those pieces of ministry and really truly getting to do work that is so separate from keeping my little, I love my congregation, I want to keep them alive, but there's a lot to keeping the church alive. And so to do this ministry that's not about getting people to come into my pews, but truly about getting them to have a chance to encounter God.

One of my favorite stories that happened online did a TikTok where I talked about how sex is not inherently sinful. Shocker, right? And the number of people who just never heard a sex positive message from a clergy person was shocking. folks saying, oh my gosh, can I come to your church? Can I Zoom worship?

as much as my ego wants everyone to come watch my Zoom worship. Worship is meant to be incarnational. And as much as everyone online wants to treat me and the handful of others as these magic unicorns, we're not. Most of what I preach is pretty in line with the Episcopal Church. And so I invited people to share their very general locations. If you give us a city, I and the other progressive clergy on TikTok will recommend churches to you in that area.

we had over 500 people ask for church recommendations on that TikTok thread. Like 500 people wanting to know like, hey, is there a safe church for me in this little town in Tennessee or Missouri? Or we had people asking in Canada, in the UK, and it was just this beautiful moment where it wasn't about getting them to come to my church.

Alexis Rice (27:52)
Hmm. Wow.

Elizabeth Riley (28:12)
everyone jumped on that thread and would say things like, an Episcopal priest would say, hey, know, the Episcopal church in that town might not be welcoming, but the Presbyterian churches or vice versa. So like the cross denominational promotion that everyone getting outside of the like, let's build up our own congregation numbers and budget to being like, let's find y'all places to connect with God like that. I think that

Alexis Rice (28:32)
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Riley (28:40)
filled up my soul for like a year of ministry, like that one thing alone, because it showed me what the hunger is out there and what the possibilities are, because people want incarnational worship, they want places to build community, and they're rightfully apprehensive of Christians. So how can we close that gap? How can we build up community and credibility and relationship and serve more than our little

Alexis Rice (28:43)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Riley (29:09)
slice of the Jesus movement. ⁓ As our former Presiding Bishop, Michael Curry said, one branch of the Jesus movement and it's really incredible how social media lets us kind of feed the whole of the plant.

Alexis Rice (29:24)
Feed the whole of the plant. Ooh, yeah, that's website called ChurchClarity. Have you heard of it?

Elizabeth Riley (29:31)
Mmm,

yes! Yes, yes, yes, they're so great.

Alexis Rice (29:34)
that's been something that I saw on Tim Whitaker from the New Evangelicals. which is just so interesting, right? about like in this day and age, if people want to go out to eat, like they'll look up the website and then they're going to like look at all the different menu items. They're going to look at the reviews. The amount of research into a dinner is wild. But then what about looking for a church, right?

Elizabeth Riley (29:52)
Mm-hmm.

Alexis Rice (29:59)
the good thing about living in this day and age is that we can do a lot of about what a church might be like before going into Is a able to be in Are you going to be able to have more progressive theology where if you might say that you're not sure if Adam and Eve were real people, that you're not going to be kicked out? ⁓

Elizabeth Riley (30:22)
great.

Alexis Rice (30:23)
for being unfaithful.

Elizabeth Riley (30:24)
Exactly, taken to remedial Sunday school until you get the right message. The research that we can do and the access that we have making folks more comfortable and more at ease is absolutely incredible. I think the piece that we're missing getting people to even want to try to do that.

We haven't done as good of a job at what is the point of church these days? How is it relevant? that I think has been a noticing that pushed me towards writing my book, Rage Prayers, which is people want a theology in a church that meets them where life is really happening. so everything happens for a reason, theology or church is just here to make you feel good.

All of that falls really short when life actually happens. so between, I think, sort of the shallowness that some people have experienced of Christianity and the dangers of Christianity, we don't do a lot to make people think to even want to turn to church anymore. I hope that some of what we're getting to do on social media and just through these, you know, seeing so many amazing clergy out there kind of

championing a different way of doing church that that message invites more people to re-explore what this has to offer.

Alexis Rice (31:45)
So one thing that's attractive to me about what you just explained is that you and a lot of talked to recently who I've been very interested in are the ones that see there are a lot of people leaving church spaces and who aren't, let's say, blaming the victims, right? actually doing some self-reflection and saying, well, perhaps it's not that people are getting

Elizabeth Riley (32:02)
Mm-hmm.

Alexis Rice (32:09)
more sinful liberalism is taking over our country, replacing God or deconstruction is all those things the way, if we were raised in fundamentalist evangelical spaces, is still the message we're hearing from afar that bad because we left that whole theology. That's to

Elizabeth Riley (32:28)
means.

Alexis Rice (32:33)
handle. And so I think it's really important what you are talking about right now, you as a Reverend are saying, hey, the church is actually causing a lot of this, you know, mass exodus. So can you just talk a little bit more about that?

Elizabeth Riley (32:50)
So even in progressive spaces, we're seeing a shrinking of the church. don't want to pick too much on the Episcopal Church. I love the Episcopal Church. And we can get stuck in the ways that we did things and the politeness. Remember the old rules. You didn't talk about politics or religion or money at the dinner table. And so some of that seeps into real life and real church.

And so we do see some of that generational struggle of like, it still can feel hard to talk about real things at church these days. think the church sometimes can shy away from hard topics. like when you look at how did the church handle queer inclusion, really divisive. It tore some churches apart. Some people wanted to not talk about the hard things we don't want to go to church and

talk about difficult topics. I absolutely think the political situation since 2016 has amplified that, right? Like, what are we talking about at church? What are we not talking about at church? And I know I've seen more and more churches and places of worship that won't take a stance or can't take a stance on Black Lives Matter or

any of the other justice issues that have been happening in our country in particular, but around the world. the desire to stay neutral by the the level of doing harm and then the level of trying to stay neutral as well, folks don't feel like they can be neutral in this day and age.

their lived experience, right? Like they want more than a church that's neutral on the rights of people, regardless of their skin color or church that's more than neutral on gender identity. I do for the church now is to learn how to be brave to do these really hard things of taking stances that are going to be divisive, but

that are going to really be leaning into the gospel. It's so much easier said than done, but I do think it's the big challenge. And it's, think, a big thing we're seeing, that I've seen within the church, is people struggling to stay in places that want to be neutral.

Alexis Rice (34:59)
you mentioned Black Lives Matter and you've mentioned queer inclusion. You've mentioned women and leadership. You've mentioned several socially progressive issues that a lot of online and conservative Christians are trying to label as anti-Christian. And I would just love to hear from you as a Christian leader who has dedicated her entire life.

Elizabeth Riley (35:07)
Mm-hmm.

Alexis Rice (35:22)
to the Bible, to Christianity, to faith, what you think about that?

Elizabeth Riley (35:26)
⁓ I mean, so since I'm not someone that really had to deconstruct from a conservative faith, to me it just seems insane white nationalism uses Christianity to prop itself up. over and over and over about standing with the marginalized.

the imprisoned, the sick, the homeless, the unclothed. And just never been a question in my mind that has been calling us to fight very human-made sins of our world, of slavery, economic oppression,

the patriarchy against people I could go on and on on I love the work of theologians such as James Cone, Martin Luther King, Phyllis Tickle, just there's so many theologians who have spoken

hate to keep using the word progressive too because it's such a trigger word, but this liberation theology, this understanding of Jesus as one who suffered and speaks for the suffering. And frankly, when it's all said and done, believe it was Barbara Brown Taylor who said,

When religion wants me to choose between my neighbor and religion, I'll choose my neighbor every time. was some quote like that. If loving people for being who they are, their God-made selves, makes me wrong, then I'd rather be wrong in that way. rather love them.

with Because that's where think God is. The institution's never going to get it perfect. that's also, mean, God, the Gospels are just stories of the disciples getting it wrong over and over and over. They are the most confused group of human beings. I mean, they get confused. They second guess. I mean, how many times has Jesus said, do you not remember? Do you not believe what I have told you before?

Alexis Rice (37:17)
hehe

Elizabeth Riley (37:30)
That's the example that gets held up for us and so that gives me so much hope that even in our flawedness, we might perhaps still be called to do this there.

Alexis Rice (37:41)
Okay, I'm going to throw a curveball at you because was at something called Theology Beer Camp. don't know if you've ever heard of that. It's run by Fuller it's basically theology nerds, it's in a different part of the country every year. people from all denominations, backgrounds. theologians, it's pastors, it's regular people.

Elizabeth Riley (37:48)
Okay? Mm-mm.

Alexis Rice (38:01)
And we all just convene, it's openly one time it was in a Lutheran-based church who hosted us, and we drink beer in the day. And we talk about theology. That's literally what it is for a of the speakers named Adam was raised in the Episcopal tradition.

Elizabeth Riley (38:11)
Perfect.

Alexis Rice (38:18)
Something I learned blew my mind and I want talk about it with you. he said since he was raised in Episcopalian he went into seminary and met people from more denominations. They had asked him when was the moment he had been saved, when he prayed the sinner's prayer, right? From stepping over and he looked at them like deer in the headlights, like, what are you talking about?

Elizabeth Riley (38:22)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Alexis Rice (38:43)
and they

looked at him as a deer in a headlights, like, how have you not done that? So heard that, that was one of those moments to deconstruct and go, I've been told my whole life that the only way you can be a Christian is you've got to get people to pray the sinner's prayer, to save their souls, to get into heaven. And I would love to about the Episcopal tradition, the history of it in terms of like,

Elizabeth Riley (38:45)
Yeah. Like what are you talking about?

Alexis Rice (39:09)
Is that a thing? ⁓ there? that.

Elizabeth Riley (39:10)
Yeah, no, we do not So

whole personal salvation thing very much comes from the Evangelical and Fundamentalist the United my understanding, could be wrong, you're gonna have a listener who gets on here and tells us all about ancient Evangelical movement. in mind, infant baptism didn't start

Alexis Rice (39:25)
it's okay, bring it on, correct us and we're

Elizabeth Riley (39:31)
until the Middle Ages and we had the plague and had infant deaths happening. You used to have to be an adult to profession of baptism started and it became much more prominent that people were born into their faith, baptized as children. the Episcopal Church we have this interesting little mix where we do practice infant baptism and adult

also have the practice of confirmation where someone gets to make an adult of their faith, so if someone was baptized as a baby and baptismal vows made on their behalf by someone else, they get to go and claim that faith. In my experience, the Episcopal Church does not have altar calls. I have only figured out what the sinner's prayer is by talking

my ex-evangelical buddies. So it's a very separate, distant thing. And I think most closest we get to it might be in some of our summer camp church culture. There's definitely been, I think, places where some of that seeped in a little bit, but not to the evangelical viewpoint. And there's certainly going to be some flavors of the Episcopal church.

as you've seen in the Bay Area, one church out there that's doing prayers of the 1928 hymnal, and then there's another church that's doing liturgical dancing, and another church that's doing incense. They're all very different. But that idea of the personal salvation I find so interesting because it seems to me

be very caught up in the psychology fear-based faith, right? This fear of damnation, this fear of other people's damnation. An important part of my story that we haven't talked as much about is that I come from an interfaith background. And so this underpinning in my theology was always that the God that loves me loves my sister who is so I have actively left

faith spaces that have said anything negative about Judaism or a theology where if you don't choose Jesus, you're damned. as I said before, our former presiding bishop talks about us being the Episcopal branch of the Jesus movement. And I love that because we are just one part of a much bigger thing. And so

I love that the Episcopal Church really works to honor that and respect that and to create space for there are going to be other ways in which people find God and find what salvation is for them. Thankfully, I have not encountered in the Episcopal Church anyone talking about why we should fear hell or anything like that. And that's...

It's not part of the... I mean, I'm sure there are places that are, but it's a whole lot more about God being love, why I love being in this church.

Alexis Rice (42:19)
What? ⁓

Ugh, I couldn't even imagine. Well, I can because I'm raising my kids now with it and it's like they don't have all this baggage that I was raised with and it's so amazing. Yeah, truly incredible.

Elizabeth Riley (42:37)
Mm-hmm.

I mean, there's something

really special about getting to raise kids in this church that they get to fall in love with and just have this incredibly positive experience of. My kids are still, they still love going to church. They asked to go to church and I'm just really grateful that right now it feels like one of the safest places for them. One of the safest communities I could have them in. And that's something I don't take for granted.

Alexis Rice (43:13)
I'd love to talk about Rage Prayers. ⁓ Yes. you said Rage Prayers started almost by accident a TikTok that resonated far beyond what you'd imagined. can you tell the story of that moment and what you think it tapped into for people?

Elizabeth Riley (43:15)
Watch first!

Swore it.

So for folks who don't TikTok, because I know either you're on it and it totally makes sense or you're like, what is that dancing app thing? So on TikTok, they're often different songs that everyone is using the same song in different videos. And so there was this one song going viral on TikTok at a certain moment that had lyrics that went something like, do you get a little bit tired of life?

not happy but you don't want to die. It's an incredibly upbeat, poppy sounding song, is lyrics about life can be really hard. I loved the dichotomy between the lyrics talking about life being hard and this poppy thing. I ended up, I lit a candle and put some text on the screen where I talked about, you know...

When life's hard, do feel like you just have to pray that everything happens for a reason? Because I don't, because I hate that. And rejecting that idea of that toxic positivity that comes into theology. Well, God has a plan. No, no, God probably doesn't have a plan. I don't think this is part of God's plan. And I said,

you don't have to smile your way through it. You can yell at God and let's rage pray. And so it just sort of spilled out of me in this silly thing. I was fairly active on TikTok at the time and didn't really expect much of it. this, after I posted the idea like, oh, prayers, like something I do. And so I kept posting about it. Admittedly, a week later, after I posted that first video, my own

marriage ended up falling apart. ⁓ And this was three years ago, I am okay. Thank you. But it ended up being this beautiful practice to sustain me of like, my marriage is ending and this is hard and devastating. And so I rage paraded my way through it. this idea that ⁓ I think I flashback a lot to like my ⁓

Alexis Rice (45:25)
Hmm. I'm sorry.

Elizabeth Riley (45:50)
to being a kid and learning how to pray and trying to figure out how is it you're supposed to pray and what are the right words you use. Even though I was raised in such an incredible religious environment, there's a lot of internalizing of what is the right way to pray, what are the right words to use. We use all this really prescriptive language in our liturgy. ⁓

I don't know if I'd ever really explicitly heard the permission that you can actually say whatever you want to God. ⁓ Instead, I'd received a lot of the implicit learning of, well, let's bring your best self to Jesus, bring your best self to God, right? We're going to wear our Sunday best, we're going to... Right? And I don't know if anyone ever said it, but mentally, I do think I internalize our prayer life is the same. Let's show up with our best self, our best thoughts, as though

Alexis Rice (46:34)
Sunday best. Yep. Yeah.

Elizabeth Riley (46:47)
we can compartmentalize some of our thoughts for God to not know or see or hear. When you start challenging it, it kind of falls apart and it's like, oh, God hears all of it, not just the parts I choose to say in that particular prayer, but all the thoughts I have after I finish my prayer. Well, if I was really honest, I would have said this and this and this and this and I'm really pissed off at this person. What if our prayer life was actually that?

And not that I think we want to live in bitterness or live in anger, but that there is a need we have to get some of this out of our bodies, right? Like the repressing of our anger, of our disappointment, of our grief, and our, you know, just to turn around and trust in God doesn't feel like it's going to help us at all. And it's actually, to me, incredibly biblical. We have

⁓ I mean, the prophets yell at God all the time, right? No, I did not want to do what he was doing, right? ⁓ I mean, the book of Job is like a rage prayer. The Psalms are full of rage prayers. And Jesus, mean, Jesus, before he raises Lazarus, he weeps. He cries out to God on the cross, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

⁓ So this expression of anger is something that we see throughout scriptures. there's something for us to learn about. How does that fit into our relationship with God and what's possible in our relationship with God when we are our most authentic and honest self? made a video

once joking about, when did we start treating God like this person we're in a fragile relationship with? Like, the idea that we're going to offend God to the point where we're rejected? Like, that's not God. people. That's institutions. That's what the church does. That's not what God does. if we can take off the kid gloves and really be in full relationship with God as our full messy selves...

Alexis Rice (48:40)
Ooh, yes.

Elizabeth Riley (49:00)
only place to go is up from there. It's messy, but it's true. the depth that can come from that, think, worth what it does. It risks some of the certainty and the established way of being that the Church has done things. But I think in that messiness and that honesty, we are

able to find something much more meaningful out of our spirituality and our relationship with God.

Alexis Rice (49:28)
Hmm. Why do think so many of us were taught to avoid praying with anger?

Elizabeth Riley (49:34)
Well, especially as women, anger isn't an emotion we're allowed to have, the controlling of our anger is one of our virtues. I think all of us are scared of staying in anger, right? Like anger is scary, rage is scary. obviously there's a lot of danger that can come from it.

But I also think it speaks truths about things that are happening in the world that are not for God to fix, but that are for people to fix. most of my rage prayers are very human made problems of genocide and war and famine and sexism. so there's truths we want to as well. We don't have a lot of models of what do you do after anger?

Alexis Rice (50:02)
Hmm

Elizabeth Riley (50:17)
most of our models are like anger leads to destruction. My experience has been like anger and rage and honesty leads to clarity. It leads to release. when I look at kind of the suffering in the world, staying angry about communities that are suffering, staying angry about

people who are being detained and kidnapped, staying angry about rights that are being stripped away. Like I don't want to become numb to the suffering of the world. I can't live in that pain constantly, but I want to stay present to it. And so that's another way that I think it keeps us awake to the truth of the world and not just trying to to that.

Alexis Rice (50:46)
Hmm.

Elizabeth Riley (51:01)
Peace for the peace or for the sake of being neutral not in conflict. So I think that's some of the value I find in it. and I think for some pray with rage or they don't pray honestly because they've never learned how to. And it's scary. Or they were chastised for it.

or they were told they were going to go to hell for it. they believed the person who told them that, it was faith leaders and adults and folks we were taught to trust who have made folks and small children feel bad for asking questions or any of it. And it's left a real lasting impact on folks. So it takes some deconstruction pray this way.

Alexis Rice (51:25)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

I'd like to read one of your rage prayers that you've had ⁓ recently online. because I think it would be helpful to just have like an example of how to do it, how you how you suggest doing it. ⁓ So let me see. Or would you like to read it? It's totally up to you. OK. So.

Elizabeth Riley (51:47)
Please.

is

No, please read it. Go ahead.

Alexis Rice (52:09)
This is a very recent one that came across my feed and I was grateful for it that day. It's about gun violence and it's about, ⁓ this was written, I think the day ⁓ that some little children who were praying in a little church were murdered.

especially as parents, we rage again. I'm just gonna read it.

Gun violence. God of peace, once again, we find ourselves in the shadow of gun violence praying to you. Our bodies, minds, and spirits are filled with rage and anguish. Your beloved children, our beloved children have been victims of violence that cannot be undone, and we pray for their comfort and rest in your endless love.

Be with those who weep most deeply. May their grief be met with your tenderness and your presence. May none grieve alone.

Can you just walk us through a little bit about how you do this and how you can help teach us to be able to do this ourselves?

Elizabeth Riley (53:21)
For me, it's always about praying the true thing. some ways, I think the book sets us up a little bit for failure because it's, you know, beautiful prayers that I've got to edit and make perfect and rage prayers aren't supposed to be perfect. They're going to be messy inelegant. You got to cross things out and start over. But

I think turning to God in our moments of pain and naming that pain to God, naming the thing that we are torn up about, naming what its impact on us is, whether that's an impact on our mind, an impact on our body, on our soul. it's sort of about what comes out of you in that.

moment I have found in rage prayers, places where grieving about my children and fearing for their futures or about the state of the world I think when we are opening up to God about what it is we're experiencing and giving ourselves permission for it to go wherever it's going to go, okay?

There is not a right way to pray. You can meander, you can have a conversation with God. You can be messy and you can double back and you can repeat yourself. I love the Episcopal Church, but we have a beautiful prayer book with beautiful prayers. I don't know if it always invites us to be inelegant with God. And maybe that's the biggest thing is like, rage prayers can be messy. And the messier we can be in prayer.

the more honest we get to be. lot of, think, where I have hoped Rage Prayer Start is an invitation for folks to really write their own prayers or pray in their own words. you know, I've written this book of prayers that has prayers for gun violence and prayers for illness and prayers for life situations so that if someone needs words, there are words there for them. that

I hope, because some of hard to find 75 different ways to address God. You're going to notice some repetition, but that helps you find the words of how, what are the words you use when you need to call on God? what are those things that you're scared to say, or scared name, or just incredibly angry about inviting God to be there with you in whatever that is?

It is cathartic. That's been my experience at least. also believe, you know, we can get very stuck on rage prayers being about anger. I think it's also about just bringing all of our emotions, whether that's elation and joy and happiness, but just that our full feelings can be present in what we pray. As Episcopalians, we we're a little reserved.

a little waspy in that way.

Alexis Rice (56:04)
that part is hard

to get used to, I'm not gonna lie. We're pretty good at that on the non-denominational side. Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Riley (56:10)
Right? But like, how could

we pray kind of in that big evangelical way, but with like, real liberation theology prayers? Like, I want

Alexis Rice (56:22)
Ooh, I love

Elizabeth Riley (56:23)
in the manipulative emotional way, but in the permissive way that we could have a full emotional experience while praying. I mean, hey, we've got something to learn from the evangelical church, but can we do it in a way that isn't just manipulating people into an emotional response?

Alexis Rice (56:31)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ thank you for that example and your example in the world. I'd love to hear about some maybe some podcasts or some scholars or some books, some accounts online that you feel like could be helpful for others listening.

Elizabeth Riley (56:58)
⁓ absolutely. There are so many great clergy who are doing fantastic work and non-clergy online. Many of them you can find under the hashtag on TikTok, progressiveclergy. Reverend Lizzie is a good friend and a fellow published author in the last year.

April Ajoy, she wrote the book Star Spangled Jesus. Have you heard of that one yet? She is fantastic. I just finished a book called I've Got by Erin like feel like rage prayers and I've Got Questions need to like go out and have drinks together.

Alexis Rice (57:20)
yes, yes, definitely. She's awesome.

Elizabeth Riley (57:33)
They're like soul sister books of just a very similar practice of having it out with God. it was excellent. those are a few of the things that pop into my mind and that I keep discovering new people. This is one of the things I'm loving about the social media world and just new creators and new voices who are popping up.

And so they're just great folks to listen to. You've had so many of them on your podcast already. great to see so many of my friends on there.

Alexis Rice (57:59)
That's so you for that. That's really helpful. I did have another question before we go into the prayer. If somebody is interested, who's listening, who's interested in trying church again, trying to go into an Episcopal church, trying to go into your church, ⁓ if they might be so fortunate to live in the Seattle what can they expect?

Elizabeth Riley (58:04)
Please.

Hmm?

Alexis Rice (58:22)
I know that's tough because we don't know where they're coming from, right? But Let's assume it's been a while since this person has been in church. it's probably for a set of a dozen reasons. It's probably one of those dozen reasons.

Elizabeth Riley (58:34)
one, just know that every Episcopal church can be very different. So I always encourage folks to check out online, watch a Zoom worship or at least fast forward, watch it at two times speed see what it is that they do. If you're going into kind of your average Episcopal church,

we're going to be a church where you're going to see maybe the older generation there. I frankly love it. I love that this is a place where my family gets to be in an intergenerational setting. if you have any familiarity with a Catholic church, you might feel like you walk into a Catholic church and a Catholic liturgy. There's a lot of similarities. So we're a very ritual church, right? Like everything we're saying and doing.

is this set little script. Like we're doing a little play on a Sunday morning and we all have our lines and the priest is going to say lines and we're going to have the prayers we respond with and a lot of it's repeated every single week. you'll have on a basic Sunday morning is starting off with hearing readings, a sermon, prayers, and what is... Oh God, I know I'm falling into my language. Communion, so the bread and the wine.

Alexis Rice (59:33)
What is Eucharist?

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Riley (59:40)
Some Episcopal churches might say that they invite baptized Christians to come forward and receive bread and wine. Some churches are going to say anyone, regardless of baptism, is welcome to come forward. They're probably not going to see their blind spots. They're going to use words like Eucharist with you. And I would say most churches are going to be amazing if you ask them questions. So if you walk into an Episcopal church and you're like, I don't know where to go,

Episcopal Church worth their salt. There's going to be some parishioner around who's going to be willing to show you where the bulletin is or the prayer book and to help you through Someone who attends that church, I love this. No, this is so good. Someone who attends there is, in my experience, going to be willing to help you and to show you the ropes. my biggest piece of advice if you go to an Episcopal Church is say hello to someone there or if someone says hello to you.

Alexis Rice (1:00:12)
What's a parishioner?

Elizabeth Riley (1:00:32)
like try to say hello Many times we have folks who are wandering around intending to help folks out. So we know our worship is weird. Like it's not going to make sense to everyone on their first go around.

Alexis Rice (1:00:48)
It took me a few

attempts, I will say. It took me some time be more open-minded about this isn't what I was used to and all that, right? But yes, but that's important.

Elizabeth Riley (1:00:57)
Right. And as soon as you figured it out,

they changed the liturgy, right? Or they changed how they prayed, right? They changed what they were saying and doing and all of a sudden you're standing at a new spot.

Alexis Rice (1:01:01)
What's the liturgy?

My reverend, again, I want to call her pastor all the reverend is so amazingly forgiving with the, I'm always like looking around and being like, what am I supposed to do?

Elizabeth Riley (1:01:15)
I

always make a point, I try really hard, if a family walks in with kids before church starts, I will go find them to make sure they know that there is no noise their child can make that will distract me or be a problem for me. Because I see parents' during church, their kid makes a noise and they're trying to figure out where to go or what to do, and I try to tell them that I have had my

four-year-old when they were three and two and whatever, you know, up in front of church, wandering around in their Halloween costume, know, distracting everyone. So many churches, I think, will do everything they can to be welcoming. And if they don't, maybe you find a different place that's a different fit. to trust your gut of what you feel in a place, but ask questions and I hope you have a good experience.

Alexis Rice (1:02:06)
Okay. a lot of people that are going to come from non-denominational spaces used to mega churches, really, really big churches, right? Hundreds or thousands. It's going to feel different, But this is important for people so they're not shell shocked, right? Of like, my God, I'm trying this tiny little church, but I am such a fish out of water,

Elizabeth Riley (1:02:13)
⁓ yeah, you're gonna feel awkward.

Because you're used to there being so many people and all of a sudden there's 30 people in the sanctuary and everyone's staring at you.

Alexis Rice (1:02:32)
Yeah, that's scary, it's uncomfortable,

Elizabeth Riley (1:02:35)
If you want to hide, find your closest cathedral. That's where you're guaranteed your probably your biggest numbers. But it's smaller and more intimate and it's also where some of the magic is because are notice when you don't show up at church and maybe you want to hide but...

Alexis Rice (1:02:47)
Yes, what I wanted to ask you about. I've learned it.

Elizabeth Riley (1:02:56)
Maybe you need folks that are going to say, hey, we really missed you last Sunday when you weren't here. Are you OK? Or we have one person who's been worshipping with us recently. Speak Spanish. I do not speak Spanish. Almost no one in our congregation speaks Spanish. But they had surgery, and we've been able to provide meals and check on them and muddle our way through Google Translate and helping take care of them.

But in these smaller communities, people are eager to take care of each other, to be in relationship. ⁓ There is a young woman who had a TikTok that sort of went viral in the Episcopal Church, because she talked about how amazing it was to raise a young family in an Episcopal Church, because you have all these adoptive grandparents sitting in the pews wanting to know your family. I mean, I know I've been blessed with,

Alexis Rice (1:03:45)
Hmm.

Elizabeth Riley (1:03:51)
parishioners, ⁓ members of my church who just want to spoil my children with gifts on Easter or always making sure they have a special treat at coffee hour, which is where we gather after church. So they're for these really special places. It feels a little like being in the spotlight some days, but it's where is. ⁓

Alexis Rice (1:04:13)
It is. And what I think the beauty of a smaller church as well is the accessibility to someone like you, like the accessibility to a reverend, a pastor, a priest. I'm still trying to figure out who's what where. ⁓ But a clergy member who has spent their entire ministry and their entire lives really learning about Jesus. then that outside of that church time,

Elizabeth Riley (1:04:29)
Hehehehe

Alexis Rice (1:04:41)
that you are able to really sit down and have a separate conversation. And I've noticed that that is where a lot of just help can come from. It's not just about the Sunday show, which is a lot of what those of us who were used to mega churches, it's the Sunday show and then the Wednesday study, which was great, but very little interaction

Elizabeth Riley (1:05:02)
Hmm?

Alexis Rice (1:05:06)
one-on-one being able to ask these types of questions like I've been able to talk to you so do you get to talk to your parishioners more one-on-one about the care and the questions

Elizabeth Riley (1:05:15)
think there is so much more space for that. It does depend on one of the issues we get into with smaller churches, sometimes your clergy aren't full time, so some push and pull there. But I get to be in relationship with them. I love getting coffee with my parishioners and getting to have those questions. I don't have the experience of being in a megachurch where you're one of hundreds and there's multiple staff members who are each in charge of their little subgroups.

I will say I think in smaller Episcopal churches, you really get to be known to your clergy and your clergy get to be known to you. And I think what you're describing is a huge gift of it.

Alexis Rice (1:05:53)
Hmm. So, Reverend Riley, as we close today, there are certainly some people who haven't been prayed over in a long time. And I was wondering if you could pray for them.

Elizabeth Riley (1:06:04)
I would love to, thank you. God be with you. Let us pray.

Alexis Rice (1:06:09)
and also

with you. ⁓ Let's try that again.

Elizabeth Riley (1:06:12)
Well, do it again. wasn't,

I'm never sure. was like, should I assume she's going to do it?

Alexis Rice (1:06:18)
yeah, not always. Okay, so you're going to say God be with you and then I say it also with you.

Elizabeth Riley (1:06:21)
Yeah. See, so

this is one of those things you'll learn in the churches. If you go to an Episcopal church, someone's going to say, the Lord be with you, and everyone will stop everything they're doing and say, and also with you. All right. So we'll do it from the top. be with you.

Alexis Rice (1:06:33)
And also with you. Yes, thank you. And also with you. Yeah. Okay. Let's try it again. Let's try it again. So we have to learn.

and also with you.

Elizabeth Riley (1:06:47)
Holy one of mystery and the unknown. We give thanks for this day, this evening and conversation. We pray for all who listen, who gather for this conversation, this dialogue, who have listened to the holy question inside of themselves and yearn to seek you.

We ask your blessing upon all those who've been driven far from you or have never gotten to know you. We ask for your blessing and your love upon all those who've been harmed by the church, by holy words, by people saying they spoke for you. Holy one, we ask your blessing upon those who yearn for a word of love, of peace, of acceptance.

of welcome. Holy One, we ask that you hear them, that they may know your presence, your compassion and your peace, bigger than any institution or any human-made thing, that your expansiveness, vastness, and your unbridled love may be bigger than anything we have created. May your love pour into all who hear.

May your love pour in to all who gather. May we walk away from this conversation and this night, knowing a bit more of you and feeling a bit more.

Alexis Rice (1:08:24)
Amen. Reverend Elizabeth Riley, thank you for being with us today.

Elizabeth Riley (1:08:29)
Thank you so much for having me.