27. Mike Maeshiro (Ex-evangelical pastor) – God Made Me Gay: Healing from Spiritual Harm

🎙️ 27. Mike Maeshiro (Ex-evangelical pastor) – God Made Me Gay: Healing from Spiritual Harm

Growing up evangelical, Mike was taught that being gay was sinful, dangerous, and something God would eventually “fix.” Today, he’s an ex-evangelical pastor helping thousands heal from spiritual trauma and rediscover a God who delights in them. In this episode, Mike shares his story with honesty, humor, and courage — from coming out, to losing his church community, to rebuilding a life rooted in joy, integrity, and love.

We explore how harmful theology takes root, what harm-reduction can look like for queer youth still inside evangelical spaces, why parents should celebrate (not merely tolerate) their queer kids, and how allies can use their voices to protect those most vulnerable.

What we cover

• Growing up fundamentalist & knowing he was gay at age 10
• Why “pray the gay away” theology creates lifelong trauma
• Harm-reduction for queer teens still stuck in non-affirming churches
• The healthiest Christian response when your child comes out
• How to begin deconstructing fear-based, authoritarian theology
• Finding safer, affirming churches—and spotting red flags
• Why allies must be loud in the comments & in real life
• What gives Mike hope for the future of Christianity

💡 Key takeaways

• Queer kids need celebration and safety — not neutrality
• Evangelicalism is a constructed system; leaving it is not leaving God
• Affirming theology saves lives
• Allies speaking up publicly is essential for closeted youth
• You can be queer and Christian — many pastors and scholars already are

⛪ About our guest

Mike Maeshiro (@mikemaeshiro) is an ex-evangelical pastor, emotional-health coach, and writer. He is currently releasing his memoir God Made Me Gay on Substack, helping people recover from spiritual harm and reconnect to themselves, to joy, and to love.

📚 Resources mentioned

Affirming theology & deconstruction
• 1946: The Movie (@1946themovie)
• Dan McClellan (@maklelan) – Data Over Dogma
• Unclobbered – Colby Martin (@colby_martin)
• Brian McLaren (@brianmclaren) – A New Kind of Christianity
• Pete Enns (@peteenns) – The Bible Tells Me So
• J.S. Park (@jspark3000) – As Long As You Need
• Eucontamination: Disgust Theology and the Christian Life – Paul & Billie Hoard

Queer pastors, priests & musicians previously featured on The Sacred Slope
• Rev. Dr. Chris Davies (@jesuslovesdinos, Episode 4)
• Rev. Darrell Goodwin (@r

Transcript

Alexis (00:00)
If you are a Christian and your kid comes out,

what's the best response for those of us who really are trying to do better, but also didn't get examples of what that could look like.

Mike (00:11)
now I have zero experience with this, my parents did not have this either. They did not have a great response to me coming out. I don't have kids. Right. So I'm saying this as someone who didn't have the experience and doesn't have kids. But as a queer person with a lot of experience on different responses to me coming out to them and some of them being awful, some of them being uncomfortable and not cool and some of them being beautiful.

ultimately it's less like specifically the verbiage, what you say, and I think more the vibe that your kid gets of your attitude in the response to what they're sharing. So my first piece of advice for evangelical parents who, whose kid comes out to them and they are supportive, which I'm like, are evangelical parents? You know, if you're a Christian and your career comes out to you and you want to show that you love and accept and support them, then

Your energy needs to be one of celebration and regard. So it would sound something like, let's say my son who's 12 comes out to me and says, dad, I think I'm gay or dad. I've known about this for a couple of years now and I, I want to tell you, I like boys. my response would be,

thank you for trusting me enough to tell me that. I feel so honored that you would share that. I love that you know that about yourself. How awesome that it's really good to know because I wasn't sure, know, like what's envisioned for your future. This helps me have more specific information around, you know, like what we're looking for. I just want him to know

this information matters to me. I don't want to treat it like it doesn't matter. I don't want to just like, okay, cool. Thanks for sharing. Like I want to make a big deal out of it. And I know people, there are queer people who are like, don't make a big deal out of this. But if my kid is choosing to share this with me, I want him to know the overwhelming response he's getting from me is that I'm happy that he shared it with me, that he trusts me and that I'm happy to that he is that way. Happy to know it, you know? Just like if he told me he got a job somewhere or like he

you know, had some like positive experience at school, I'm going to celebrate that in the same way knowing something about himself That's that profound is going to be something as a parent I'm going to celebrate. So don't be like deterred by people who are like, don't make it a big deal. It is a big deal. It's a big deal for and Gen Z would disagree with me on this. I'm coming at this as a 90s kid, a millennial. So categorize me and like generationally put me in where I belong. I can't help feel this way. I'm going to celebrate the hell out of my kid if you were to come out to

me I love that about you thanks for sharing 100 % in your corner I'm gonna you know be the biggest ally you've ever seen like I'm gonna embarrass you you're just gonna deal with that but I love you thank you for you know that's it's good but the point is not any specific thing I'm saying the point is to give him a vibe check I'm on your team I see you I love you I support you I am NOT afraid of this information I'm gonna move toward you in this area you're gonna have to beat me off with a stick I'm in your corner

That's the vibe that I would want to experience as a kid. the point of showing up with that kind of energy is to remove any doubt for my kid where I stand on this and how I'm going to show up in his life. Right? Like it's going to be that. So however it is you figure out how you want to express that. That's what your queer kid wants to experience from you.

Alexis Rice (03:20)
Welcome to The Sacred Slope. I'm Alexis Rice, episode hits really close to home. This one's really personal for me. Some of the people I love most are gay, and I've watched them carry this pain that they never should have had to carry growing up typically in evangelical fundamentalist church spaces that told them their identity was sinful, hearing things like Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

being treated as less than unwelcome or morally suspect. I've seen friends who loved Jesus with all their heart, who desperately wanted to stay in their church communities only to be pushed out. So this conversation isn't theoretical to me, And that's why I'm so grateful to welcome Mike Maeshiro today.

Mike shares his story with honesty, humor, courage, and so much heart. He lets us into the reality of growing up evangelical, coming out, surviving spiritual trauma, and discovering joy again. And he offers something invaluable for all of us who want to do better, especially parents and clergy, real grounded guidance on how to show up for queer people with love instead of with judgment.

This episode is a little longer than usual because we recorded it over two conversations and because we discovered a 6th love language as Mike likes to say, which is movies and TV shows. So it was way too fun to cut. So skip ahead if you need to, but honestly, it's delightful. For those of you who haven't gone through deconstruction work of understanding what the Bible has to say,

about homosexuality if you were really given only kind of one framework that says, well, being gay is a sin and that's all there is to it. It's an open and shut issue. I wanna let you know are so many great resources out there for you if you are interested in starting to deconstruct this. One of them is 1946, the 1946 documentary,

Another one is Data Over Dan McClellan has an excellent course on the Bible and homosexuality. Colby Martin has a great book called Unclobbered, which goes through the clobber passages, There are several pastors and priests. podcast episodes that I have that

can expose you to pastors and priests who are queer challenge you to learn about the Christian faith through queer people if you haven't done that yet. So Reverend Dr. Chris Davies is episode 4 Reverend Darrell Goodwin is episode 5

Reverend Roberto Che Espinoza is episode 15

Father Lizzie is episode 7 there's even musicians like Semler who is a Christian and a queer person. is episode 13. So if you're ready to really learn from different aspects of the body of Christ, different people, I highly suggest that you do some work.

If anybody's curious about how to learn to be better allies to people in the queer community start with this episode. Start with opening your hearts and your minds and your ears to try to understand what

it's been like to grow up in a lot of church communities, at least in the United States, knowing that you are a queer person. I thank Mike so much for this time, and I'm so excited to dive in. Let's go.

Alexis (07:35)
Welcome back to the Sacred Slope, friends.

Today I'm joined by someone whose life and work have helped thousands heal from the kind of religious trauma that they thought they had to endure alone. This is Mike Maeshiro. Hey, Mike.

Mike (07:49)
Hey Alexis, for having me. I'm excited and honored to be here.

Alexis (07:50)
Thanks for being here.

Mike is a former evangelical pastor turned emotional health coach and author. He's actually writing his memoir on Substack now and it's called God Made Me Gay, Helping People Recover from Spiritual Harm and Reconnect to Themselves and to Love. Mike's really spoken so courageously about his own journey on social media and that's something I admire and love so much about your work online is that you minister to people.

through who you are and continuing to show love and to show the harm that people do inflict upon you who are calling themselves Christian. And I think that that's really important right now to see because many gay people experience that in private. And so I really wanna thank you for your work. Mike

up in evangelical culture. He's talked about coming out and learning how to rebuild faith and belonging from the ground up. So Mike's story isn't just about deconstruction, but it's also about reconstruction and finding out what happens when you learn to hold complexity and integrate your faith and find this joy again after leaving spiritual spaces that once defined you and then later harm you. he's become this trusted voice for those navigating identity, spirituality and healing.

And his approach, which is equal parts compassion, boundaries, and humor, makes him one of the most grounding presences in the deconstruction world. Yeah, that's you. ⁓

Mike (09:18)
Wow, wow Nice

job. Thanks.

Alexis (09:20)
today we're gonna talk about what healthy faith can look like and how we can reduce harm for young people who are still in evangelical spaces and what real inclusion that's rooted in theology and not tokenism requires from us. So Mike, welcome to the Sacred Slope.

Mike (09:37)
Alexis, I'm just gonna call you every morning and have you hype me up for the day. That was awesome. I feel really cool right now.

Alexis (09:47)
Well, you do a lot of great work and you have to be reminded of that sometimes. So give me a call anytime, give me a text, be like, I need to pick me up.

Mike (09:50)
Thank you.

⁓

Yeah, thank you. I'm honored.

Alexis (10:00)
So can

we start by talking about your faith life as a kid? what did church and family and faith look like for you in those early years?

Mike (10:08)
I mean, everyone who was raised evangelical, that was my my upbringing. I was four when I was first brought to an evangelical church. It was an independent fundamental Baptist church, which is one one of the stricter, more intense versions of conservative evangelicalism. And I was told about hell and Jesus and sacrifice and atonement and all that salvation. At four, on my first Sunday school visit, was a lot, yeah. I look back and I'm like, what were they thinking? Like, how could you?

Alexis (10:28)
At four. At four? Cool. ⁓

Mike (10:36)
Yeah, like I was not old enough to be thinking through and processing this stuff. I mean, I did and it deeply impacted how I experienced the world and how I showed up. Right. But anyway, so I got saved. I was terrified into the kingdom. And that was very formative. I was put in private school immediately and then was going to this independent fundamental Baptist private school five days a week, church on Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night. Right. So it was like

Most of my life was this and I drank deep of the indoctrination. I was very programmed. And of course, you know, learned pretty early on that gay people were horrible and you know, going to hell and whatever. And it was the nineties. So like that was not a great time for gay people. ⁓ You know, especially in like Christian spaces. So that was like a very prominent message I was learning, even though I wasn't entirely aware

Alexis (11:17)
Yep. Nope.

Mike (11:29)
that it was gonna be as relevant to me as it was. And then when I was 10, I realized, I'm gay, God. And got to intentionally go deep in the closet. But anyway, that was my early formative years with the church.

Alexis (11:41)
how old did you say you were when you knew you were gay?

Mike (11:43)
knew I was gay before this, I realized the word we had in our culture, gay, was applicable to me too when I was 10 years old. Yeah.

Alexis (11:51)
when you were 10. Yeah,

okay. so, you at 10, you're feeling that. Why did you decide to become a pastor, an evangelical pastor when you knew as a kid that you were gay and like, man, that must've been hard. So like, yeah, what was that like?

Mike (11:58)
Well, okay, okay.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it was a mind job for sure. Fair question. When I discovered my sexuality, I learned it through the lens of religious indoctrination, right? So I perceived it as not this is who I am. This is how I'm wired. these are immutable traits about me that I had no control over. That's not how I understood it. Even though I like I think intuitively I knew I can't change this. There's nothing that I can do. This is just how I am. I knew that in my body.

But in my mind, I perceived it as, ⁓ I am broken. I am fallen. I am dysfunctional. I need to be healed. there's this deeply flawed aspect of me that needs to be changed. That's how I understood and perceived it. So all of my gay experiences and, you know, internal thought processes,

were filtered by shame and fear and embarrassment and disgust even. like I said, I drank deep of the theology and the ideology. So I believed down the road, hopefully, I believe is the wrong word. I hoped that God would eventually somehow miraculously make me straight. And that hope was fueled and reinforced by what

Alexis (13:15)
Hmm

Mike (13:19)
was hearing in the church, especially as I got older and started talking about my deviant sexual desires, I was being told repeatedly from any of the mentors and trusted people that I spoke to that God was going to change me, that that was God's will for me, that I would become straight, that I would fall in love with a woman and marry her and have, you know. So I was just deeply programmed to think that about myself. I didn't have autonomy to understand my experience with dignity.

and education before this religious institution came in and told me what to think and how to interpret and experience this part of my life. So that's how that went for decades. And so I treated my sexuality like something I didn't want to talk about, didn't want to look at, which is going to avoid. And ultimately, like, was celibate for so long. I was a sexless monk, basically, just deeply committed to

theology, ministry, the church. And I don't say that like flippantly. you look at my younger years, I'm like, that wasn't normal, but it was like an escape, right? It was like this crutch to compensate for the aspects of my life I wasn't allowed to experience or to express. Like my friends were all obsessed with and constantly talking about drama and who they had a crush on and who did what with whom at what party. And I was like, you guys are all so human and boring.

I'm over here, you know, yeah, I just had this like religious piety about me that I didn't strut around with, but that was like a coping mechanism to deal with this deep hole and like lack of fulfillment I was experiencing as a person, you know? Anyway, so because of how deeply like shoved down that was and how important ministry had been to me in my family, in my environment, it was like propped up as like, this is the most important thing.

⁓ I was like, well, I'm going to do the best that I can with what I have, right? So I'm going to go into ministry. I want to work and invest and dedicate my life to the most important thing. And so that's why I went in.

Alexis (15:17)
breaks my heart about that story is that had you been in another denomination, right, had we grown up in other denominations, we both grew up very similar, like non-denominational, Baptist, evangelical, where purity culture reigned in the 90s. And, women had to be a certain way, and queer people were not allowed to be queer, right?

and women were under men. And that is resurging, Right now. We were finally making some progress in these spaces. And it's just mind blowing, I think, for people like us who were raised and rooted in evangelicalism to see kind of what's going on right now. does it feel so weird to you? Just like, how is this 2025?

Mike (15:57)
Yeah, it's it's like a fever dream.

Yes. So exactly. No, exactly. It feels like that. It's like, how is this happening? This is so bizarre. It makes no sense. It's absurd. Yeah.

Alexis (16:05)
Yeah,

on this podcast, one of the things that is really important to me is to show how big the body of Christ is around the world. Like, one in three people on the planet identify as Christian, and that's over thousands of denominations. And our big, inclusive faith includes queer people.

It includes straight people. It includes people of every color of the rainbow. It includes people who who are rich. We're all in the body of Christ if we look holistically, right? I've had a trans pastor on this podcast. I've had a lesbian pastor on this gay pastor on this podcast.

and so many over the world who are pastors and ministers and leaders. They are so incredibly inclusive that it's just not even an issue. I'll give you an example. My personal minister now of the Episcopalian denomination, who I know, you we were taught as kids that those are the bad ones, right? Those are those evil progressives over there. But, you know, she even told me

hey, if your daughter comes in, you know, as a teenager and brings a woman, like no one's gonna bat an eye.

So here's my question. If your childhood church had been openly affirming, how do you think that might have changed your journey?

Mike (17:31)
I mean, in so many ways, like hearing that about your child, like having that opportunity.

Now granted, obviously there's still this heterosexist, homophobic emphasis in our culture at large as well. So like I still would have been afraid at school regardless of church, but if church was a safe place for me to be who I was and accepted and celebrated and supported there, I mean, I would have avoided so much suppression and repression, right? And shame and self-hatred. ⁓

Might've been willing to be honest with some important people in my life earlier and gotten to experience the benefit of actually belonging to a community and feeling seen and understood and accepted in important parts of myself. it would probably would've changed the trajectory of my life. if I were to go into ministry, it would have been in a different lane with a different, set of values and like infrastructure.

yeah, it's, it's hard to answer that question because it would just change so much. would have like so many different layers and aspects of my experience and trajectory would have been different if I knew there was like an ounce of possibility of celebration and support and validity and wholeness getting to be myself. I would have chosen that in a heartbeat.

I knew there were like out gay people. There was a gay community. I there are people, straight people who like supported gay people, but all those people were deceived, were lost, were of the world, right? So I had no inkling in my immediate environment that I could be myself.

fully myself and love. That was just never on the table. I think part of my ability to last as long as I did in that world was because I never got to consider that. it was just not a possibility, you know, because I loved Jesus, because I was following the Lord. I was going to honor God. So that was not even an option. So yeah, it would have changed my life in so many ways. so many, mean, probably on every level, you know.

Alexis (19:30)
one of the reasons I ask that is because young people still inside of evangelical spaces, more and more these days. And I think there will always be the queer community and there will always be the evangelical community, right? And they're not playing well in the sandbox together, but it seems like in more, I don't like the word progressive.

Christian spaces, but let's just call it that for now. So all the mainline denominations the United Church of Christ, Episcopalian, Lutheran, United Methodist, lots of Presbyterian, post-evangelical, there's so many that are open and affirming. So, you know, celebratory. those churches do provide those experiences for people

for those young people who are still inside of evangelical spaces, who know that they are gay, what are some harm reduction practices that they can begin right now, even if leaving that community isn't yet possible? what if they want to pursue a relationship with Jesus, but they also know that God made them gay. That is who God made them to be in God's own image and God doesn't make mistakes.

Mike (20:39)
You know, I think you're gonna get an answer depending on who you're asking. For me, here's what I wanna say, knowing that I'm not gonna cover everything. My first response to that question is, if we're about harm reduction for the individual, I them consume content from people who are affirming who they are specifically within the theological framework, right? Because that's just such an intense part of their worldview. I'm assuming if they're like me and they were raised...

being indoctrinated before they even had the opportunity to critically think through what was being presented. follow content creators in whatever access they have to information outside of their bubble, like listen to people who are speaking to the pieces on the board for them, the Jesus, the devil, the sin factors and getting reframes around how to understand themselves as queer people in the world

and who God is to those people and listening to the other experiences and perspectives and convictions and studies and research and academia that's been presented that actually contradicts what they're being told. I would first and foremost be like, go help yourself get deprogrammed, confront some of this indoctrination and like learn some other more valid and more substantiated and produce better fruit than what they're being told at church.

That would be like the first thing for me, the most harm reducing thing for someone in indoctrination place is to get information outside of that that is advocating for who they are and supporting and validating of their identity. I think that would have been a game changer for me. If I had known, I mean, the thing is I would have been terrified. Like someone could have given me a book and I would have hidden it from anyone and probably would have been too scared to turn the pages. It would have been too scary.

Because everything that I would lose and all the things that it would like threaten and challenge about my own like social safety, you know? So I understand what I'm saying just feels like, would they even be willing to watch that video or to listen to that thing or to open that email? I don't know. But getting access to that information, I think I'm saying that now as an out and proud and aligned gay person person. there are all these barriers, but I think getting information to contradict.

Alexis (22:24)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (22:48)
the harmful messaging they're getting regularly would be really helpful. And then obviously like having some.

safe people they can confide in. But again, like I didn't really have those people in my life. everyone that I was most trusted with or that I trusted the most were just as deeply like subscribed to the system as I was, you know? So like I didn't have, I remember I was in middle school and I was like, there is no one in my life I can tell. I can talk to about how I'm feeling about, you know, what's going on in my life. And that was the first time in my life I ever wanted to die. it was a super intense dark period.

And because I just felt so alone and like that there were no options. Like nobody knew me. It sounds so dramatic when you're in middle school, right? Your emotions are like so intense. but that was my reality. Like I just felt so isolated and like sad and like grieved with no relent, no like comfort, no opportunity to find my way out of that hole. And so I had to find a mission

That was part of what drove me into ministry I needed to redirect that energy to something constructive because it was going to end me. so I think if if the possibility of having some trusted people they could talk to who wouldn't try and like dehumanize them, that would be another like incredible thing to do. but everything I'm offering in terms of this harm reduction practice is like dependent and factors that, you know, might not be true for

Alexis (24:08)
even though like I always felt, I mean, I didn't know the word affirming. we were always told you know, nothing gay, we were always told that stuff, right? And so when I would see, gay flags that were outside of churches, and then I was told like, oh, well, those aren't real churches. Like those aren't biblical, right? Biblical churches.

But then when I started going to the churches and speaking to people who are in those churches,

you realize that we were raised on different planets in terms of how we love Jesus, how we view God as a loving, caring, comforting creator versus a judgmental fear base, like you're going to hell if you don't do all the things that you do. It's just really different views and lenses, So here's the cool thing people these days who are younger, unlike our time,

Now they've access to social media, to accounts like yours, which are really important and helpful. They have access to podcasts so they can sit and listen to people who love Jesus, who have been talking about their experiences and say, Hey, we're not presenting this binary of like, have to be gay and atheist, or you have to be straight and Christian. Like this is a false binary, correct? You get to choose. You can be queer and Christian. You can be straight and an atheist.

But here's my question. When someone's ready maybe to move toward an affirming church, but fears losing that community. What's a way that they can deconstruct in a way that isn't as painful in that process?

Mike (25:37)
I don't know if anyone can do this without it being painful if they were sincere. Yeah. Like the pain is unavoidable.

Alexis (25:40)
No, it's going to be painful. But like,

Mike (25:42)
Like I remember when I was on my deconstructing journey, Josh Scott, the pastor of Grace Point in Nashville, he had a blog that he would share all these just theological arguments of just where he's coming from and why. And it was terrifying and so helpful. It was this whole catalog of subjects that he was addressing. And I was like, thank you for putting this somewhere. could at least just read what he thinks. if you're going to take a step in a direction that's deprogramming, what you've been told your whole life and is still reinforced by an entire system.

And culture, that's not going to happen overnight. It's not a flip of a switch. It's like many micro, I'm going to use the word decisions, micro decisions on what to allow to be true in your life. Because when you believe in the evangelical ethos, you are deciding. That's true. You're deciding like the Bible is God's authoritative, infallible, inerrant word. And it dictates my life. That's a decision you're making. That's actually not anything the Bible is.

saying about itself. That's yeah, that's an institution, an indoctrinating like mechanism that you chose to let be true in your life. So anyway, if you're going to choose to walk away or like to baby step your way out of that, it's going to be a bunch of new decisions. And those decisions can align with your conscience when you find this substantiating evidence for them, right? Like, oh no, I need to change this idea. Maybe people aren't inherently pieces of garbage.

Alexis (26:35)
Yes, that is preach.

Mike (27:04)
Maybe gay people aren't evil, possessed by demon type people or perverts, right? Maybe that's not true. Maybe women are just as valid as men in the eyes of God and in humanity. These little decisions, right?

Alexis (27:13)
What?

Mike (27:15)
Over time, as you continue to engage that process, your worldview will absolutely change. Evangelicalism is a manufactured, contrived worldview. It's not natural. There's nothing in nature that actually supports thinking that way. In fact, nature actually contradicts what evangelicalism has to say about humanity and the world. if you're going to choose to be evangelical, you have to subscribe to the system to continue to maintain that. You need other people saying the same thing you want to believe in order to hold it.

But if you want to step out of that, you've got to find evidence contrary to what you've been told your whole life. And then you will find, my God, it did. There's this momentum that builds, right? there's like a tipping point for each of us and it's different, you know, for everyone where, when it thing has gotten its own momentum and you can't stop yourself from like being extracted from evangelical indoctrination. That doesn't happen right away, but once you do the work.

and you start listening to what other more intelligent, more informed, more diligent people have had to say about these subjects, the stuff starts to kind of fall apart on its own. ⁓ so I think those are probably the best ways to start and like probably being a little more private about that, which sucks. being in the closet for so many years of my life, I know how sucky it is to maintain an important secret from everyone in your life. It's important to you. That sucks. It's like something divisive about it in your own personhood, but

If it's the beginning stages, I would encourage someone who's doing this to not talk about it with anybody in their evangelical community because that's not going to be a constructive conversation. And many of us probably would want to because we think that our closer friends are going to trust and respect us and probably go on this journey with us. And that's probably not true. You're going to find that actually their indoctrination is stronger than their bond with you because what you're offering to them, what you're experiencing is a loss that they've not emotionally prepared for. They're not the ones looking to

implode their lives or like, you know, abandon their whole social structure. So I would encourage people to not be talking to other evangelicals as they step into this. If there are people outside of that system, great, have conversations with them and they could probably be constructive in the process. But talking to other evangelicals while you're trying to like ask questions, not helpful because their whole job without realizing it is to keep you of that mindset. They're trying to do it for themselves. So if you're going to be somebody who's going to contradict that, you're not becoming the enemy, the other, and they're going to do what they can.

to save you, so I think access to information and keeping it private when it's appropriate.

Alexis (29:38)
Yeah, that's great. And Josh Scott's so awesome. I've interviewed him and he's just amazing. And, you know, I think that's actually a really good point is that if you're in an evangelical church, we're not saying like, hey, if you go down this process, you're going to take a slippery slope into atheism and you have to give up your whole identity as a Christian. I think that's really important for people to hear is like, no, what we're trying to say is that, for example, Josh Scott as a pastor, as a faithful man of God.

Mike (29:42)
next.

Alexis (30:06)
can be there for you and other pastors like him, Can be there for you as affirming your identity in God and have a positive Christian experience, A positive Jesus following experience. That does exist for those who are interested in that space, correct?

Mike (30:25)
Yeah, totally. Yeah, huge. Which I didn't even know. Yeah, so like there are pastors in the world who are saying something different, who are still beholden to the Bible. They still have like the utmost respect for these texts I would say they're, more respectful of these texts by taking them seriously, right? Instead of using these texts as tools to contrive their own agenda, there are plenty of other pastors in the world.

who are looking at these texts and being more faithful with what they're seeing there and doing good work with

Alexis (30:56)
think I just saw an article Church of Norway doing a formal apology to the queer community as a church, as a church of the, you know, the country, I know. And there have been a couple other countries that as a Christian church have done a formal apology. find so much inspiration in these Christian leaders around the world. Also, there are plenty in the US, many on these podcasts that I've interviewed.

churchclarity.org. I found that from Tim Whitaker of the New Evangelicals, but if you go to churchclarity.org, they clear churches on like, are they open and affirming? Do they allow women in leadership? And there are thousands of churches on there and you can just put in your zip code and you can see if it's certified clear by church clarity. And so you can go into safer spaces.

Which like, again, could you imagine if we would have had this when we were younger? Like just going down the road to a different space and had a whole different experience.

Mike (31:52)
Amazing, I love that. Huge. I mean, there's two things right here that I'm just like so glad you told me about them. I had no idea. I love that.

Alexis (31:59)
let's talk about of building tent. the world is not a binary, the US, our media will have us a lot of these would-be allies, They're liberal or conservative, and they are really scared to say the wrong thing and being labeled bigoted. And I would say that's a huge bucket of people, I think that

we as have to learn some things from the last several years because there were 90 million people who did not vote in the 2024 election who could have. And that means that they weren't for Trump. They were like, I'm not going to do it. But the Democrats, they felt, them enough reason. I'm very interested in this group because a lot of those people

they were raised in Christian households and they're in this kind of in-between. And I think what the left did is kind of do a lot with the right does and was very quick to judge if people stepped out in different ways, but people don't like those feelings. And I think it's important for as just liberals in general find out what's not resonating, And turn inward to be like, how can we be

a more compassionate, kinder, empathetic community that, not everybody is saying that they feel. How do you feel about that? what have you learned about calling people in instead of calling them out?

Mike (33:17)
Yeah, so I do see a huge need for us to do better here. I wasn't even necessarily thinking along political lines, although obviously, of course, that's hugely relevant. But I was just thinking even within the queer community, I'm running into like really toxic ideas from other queer people about the justice that we deserve and how to confront our oppressors or whatever. I'm like, this is not a solution. This is not a way forward. This actually violates my own ethics. Like I can't be part of this just because you're a queer person doesn't

justify what you're proposing here. I do think there is a huge need for everybody involved to properly grieve, especially like if we've experienced trauma and have been a marginalized group who have been oppressed. Like there is grieving that's necessary to acknowledge the loss.

what didn't get to happen in our lives or what happened that shouldn't have, or whatever. Like there's so much pain that comes with that that needs to be processed and we need to accept our stories and our journeys. And I've come across a lot of people who like are unwilling to do that for whatever reason. And the refusal to go down the journey of lamenting and grieving like sufficiently leaves us in this place of being hurt people and reacting very sensitively to

inappropriate behavior or straight up just unjust toxic ideology, right? And contributing to a new problem and creating more chaos and harm in the world. And there's like a lack of willingness to, or maybe even ability to think beyond reacting because that pain is just still so occupying and it's not going anywhere. And people are experiencing and listening to and filtering what they're hearing through that pain. And so then they only have pain to give out.

and they feel justified in things like the pain is valid and what they're expressing is valid and they deserve to express that. But we also then like actually participate in harming other people when we don't take responsibility for what's happened to us and, owning our story and letting the healing happen. so I think there's a lot of that not happening, which is contributing to this very divisive, volatile.

discourse that's creating these really strong lines. It's not helpful. If I try to like advocate for pragmatism and trying to reason with people who don't agree with us, I lose followers. get, you know, I don't cancel to feel strong, but people get really mad at me cause all they hear is you're defending the oppressor. You're giving, voice or like defense to

people who are already in positions of privilege and have power. And I'm like, there's validity to what they're pointing out that there's truth to that somewhere, but contextually and with nuance, it's actually creating a whole other problem that we currently actually need to course correct from. There's a whole other form of damage that's actively being done by people on the left and in the queer community because of this unchecked pain that isn't being, to me, that's the source of it is we're all emotional people.

and we've got all this pain isn't being processed, we have more information coming at us than we can process, that we can keep up with. And then all this pain that's coming from the awareness and information we're getting, I don't think we can metabolize it fast enough. so the people who are participating in these conversations sometimes are not contributing to a constructive conversation. They're actually just building walls and weapons and defenses. So the need for

I'm going to use the word listening. Although Alexis, I have to confess, like I am currently actively having a text conversation with a former friend of mine who voted for Trump and is currently still defending Charlie Kirk in our conversation. And, and it is exhausting. Right? Yeah. And it is exhausting. And I am actively trying to lean in and participate. and it's really difficult because even the way we both participate in this conversation is not the same.

Alexis (36:56)
We all got family and friends doing that. If, yeah. Yeah.

I know, it's so hard.

Mike (37:09)
And we both feel like we're the ones showing up as the bigger person It's exhausting to try and figure out, where the lines are, who's going to referee these dynamics. It's a lot of work. so I don't think the majority of people right now have the bandwidth to put the level of emotional labor into this that it requires to have constructive dialogue, unfortunately.

my God, these are my thoughts. don't know if I'm giving you any solutions, like...

Alexis (37:33)
No, these are so important

because this resonates so much with people, You know, you know that this is where we came from and what we're feeling and what we're going through. And I think one thing that hopefully everyone can agree on no matter what they believe right now is that like, this isn't great. Like where we are as a country, I don't think anyone's thrilled about how it is, right? like I think especially people who are a little bit more our age

let's just say that we went through the eighties and nineties as kids. we do imagine and reflect a time that was a lot more cordial, even though we have political differences.

Mike (38:06)
Yeah, civility, respect, politeness, yeah, used to be a thing. a thing anymore.

Alexis (38:07)
Right? Like,

not a thing. my hope is that be the people that we want other people to be. And I don't know how to do that when we're always feeling like we're pulled into the easier, you know, like my corner piece, but we can't get into those binaries. So I'm very curious about where we're gonna go from here and how we're gonna get better.

in that mindset, a couple of things that I feel like you're really good at is this mentoring and pastoring and coming up with some very helpful, thoughtful ideas around how to move forward in productive ways. So I'd like to ask you about two groups of people. One is pastors who open and affirming or who are trying to move through that process. And I will say a lot of these pastors

typically aren't gonna have massive budgets and they're typically gonna be these tiny little churches and they're doing their best. Like an example, my spiritual director, she has this tiny little church out on the coast and a lot of old people and they dress up together for trans awareness day and they put on the trans colors and the trans flag and these old people go out and they're just like so excited and I know, sorry, that's the old people, ageist thing I did there, but you know what I mean?

these people, go out and they're saying, accept you and we care about but also evangelical spaces have the microphones and the money. And so you don't hear or see of these things. And so my question for you is for pastors and churches who really want to be more queer affirming, what kind of advice do you have for them as they're trying to move community, better church?

environments.

Mike (39:47)
what you just described is a very real thing going on right now. So many tiny churches all over the place that are doing good work and showing up, but they're tiny and often demographically, like their congregation is like in the senior category, my first answer is

maybe getting more strategic around having an online presence, because that's a major source of where people are going for this kind of insight or support or whatever. And so becoming more visible online, whether it's social media, on the internet, Google, whatever, YouTube, email, I don't care, whatever. Just like in ways that you could be accessible via the internet, I think would be really helpful to have.

you're right, the evangelical system has this whole infrastructure, conference circuits and they have these, platforms and microphones and they have these podcasts and talking heads and when it just and money like they're just it's this established machine.

I don't know if progressive churches have what it takes to compete with that right now. I get on statistical level, like, oh, God, this is not a fair quote unquote idea. Yeah, Oh, it Because ideologically, the evangelical church is bankrupt. Like they are absolutely missing very real components of an ethical worldview and participation today. Like, to me, it's like, this is not a question. This is like,

Alexis (40:50)
But it distorts reality, doesn't it?

Mike (41:05)
Factual and yet they're the loudest most attended version of Christianity in America. It's like god, so I would also say like investing in learning some strategies on how to appeal to younger demographics if Evangelicals are converting people in high school, which I'm hearing about like I have coaching clients who are queer and their kids Are going to evangelical churches

going to Sunday school, getting baptized. I'm are you kidding me? Like, what are you talking about? This is unbelievable to me. How is this happening? But it is. And it's not because of their parents. It's because of their friends at school who are being taught to evangelize and having events to bring their friends to that are appealing, right? Like, I would love it if progressive churches could figure out how to become appealing to younger demographics and providing experience, space, whatever that matters to these.

age ranges and I don't know that's happening at the moment. I don't know what the answer to that is but I do think that that's on the table like they could. There could be this revolution of progressive churches providing this service, this opportunity, this kind of vibe that Gen Z wants to be part of whatever right and and then with that comes like some values of like inclusion and respect and empathy and like these things that matter that would compete with this evangelical

Alexis (42:29)
the second group I'm curious about is for parents who maybe didn't grow up with proper messaging for their kids as they come out. Right? So

What advice do you have for

Those of us who are now parents that were raised in evangelical culture, so we didn't see necessarily like great examples

If you are a Christian and your kid comes out,

what's the best response for those of us who really are trying to do better, but also didn't get examples of what that could look like.

Mike (43:03)
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to try and stay positive on this because I have lots of things to say about what not to do. now I have zero experience with this, my parents did not have this either. They did not have a great response to me coming out. I don't have kids. Right. So I'm saying this as someone who didn't have the experience and doesn't have kids. But as a queer person with a lot of experience on different responses to me coming out to them and some of them being awful, some of them being uncomfortable and not cool and some of them being beautiful.

⁓ ultimately it's less like specifically the verbiage, what you say, and I think more the vibe that your kid gets of your attitude in the response to what they're sharing. So my first piece of advice for evangelical parents who, whose kid comes out to them and they are supportive, which I'm like, are evangelical parents? You know, if you're a Christian and your career comes out to you and you want to show that you love and accept and support them, then

Your energy needs to be one of celebration and regard. So it would sound something like, let's say my son who's 12 comes out to me and says, dad, I think I'm gay or dad. I've known about this for a couple of years now and I, I want to tell you, I like boys. my response would be, ⁓ let's say his name is John. I would not name my son, John, probably, but let's say he's like, I'm like, ⁓ nothing gets John.

I would probably need to have some kind of more unique name for my son. ⁓ But I would say, John, thank you for trusting me enough to tell me that. I feel so honored that you would share that. I love that you know that about yourself. How awesome that it's really good to know because I wasn't sure, know, like what's envisioned for your future. This helps me have more specific information around, you know, like what we're looking for. I just want him to know

Alexis (44:28)
You

Mike (44:48)
this information matters to me. I don't want to treat it like it doesn't matter. I don't want to just like, okay, cool. Thanks for sharing. Like I want to make a big deal out of it. And I know people, there are queer people who are like, don't make a big deal out of this. But if my kid is choosing to share this with me, I want him to know the overwhelming response he's getting from me is that I'm happy that he shared it with me, that he trusts me and that I'm happy to that he is that way. Happy to know it, you know? Just like if he told me he got a job somewhere or like he

you know, had some like positive experience at school, I'm going to celebrate that in the same way knowing something about himself That's that profound is going to be something as a parent I'm going to celebrate. So don't be like deterred by people who are like, don't make it a big deal. It is a big deal. It's a big deal for and Gen Z would disagree with me on this. I'm coming at this as a 90s kid, a millennial. So categorize me and like generationally put me in where I belong. I can't help feel this way. I'm going to celebrate the hell out of my kid if you were to come out to

me I love that about you thanks for sharing 100 % in your corner I'm gonna you know be the biggest ally you've ever seen like I'm gonna embarrass you you're just gonna deal with that but I love you thank you for you know that's it's good but the point is not any specific thing I'm saying the point is to give him a vibe check I'm on your team I see you I love you I support you I am NOT afraid of this information I'm gonna move toward you in this area you're gonna have to beat me off with a stick I'm in your corner

That's the vibe that I would want to experience as a kid. the point of showing up with that kind of energy is to remove any doubt for my kid where I stand on this and how I'm going to show up in his life. Right? Like it's going to be that. So however it is you figure out how you want to express that. That's what your queer kid wants to experience from you.

Alexis (46:27)
Thank you, Mike. That's really awesome. And I know that's gonna help a lot of

spoken about reconnecting to joy and to play after leaving a high controlled lens of our faith. what helps you stay hopeful today and how have you evolved into places that you feel like are a lot healthier?

Mike (46:45)
I think one of the biggest contributing factors to me finding joy in this part of my process is, this is weird, but like doing the work, like reading.

deconstructing, like pulling apart all these toxic ideas that I had to believe and that had to dictate my experience in life and who I could even have a relationship with. having those things go away with my conscience intact, with my intellectual integrity on the table is such a joyful experience. is so liberating. It is terrifying and life-changing and scary and whatever. But when you get through all that, it's also so liberating. And all of a sudden you're like, wait, wait.

I get to fill in the blank. can whatever and God doesn't hate me for this or wouldn't, you know, whatever like that changing in my conscience and in my worldview and ethos, like authentically actually being different is how can you not be happy about that? when I used to live around, live with like this devil running around trying to ruin everything and kill us and destroy the world and this God that like had all these conditions for his unconditional love.

and that demanded all this subservience and was authoritarian in his approach to the world. Like for all that to go away, I don't know how like joy can't be a result of that, right? Like, and for me to get to date other men and actually like fall in love with somebody I actually want to be with, I don't know how to not be happy about that. And then to actually like to see other women, like to see women be like fully capable of participating in everything on across the board, which I wanted to believe and kind of did, right? But like to have more like

convicted awareness of the disparity and like the deservedness and the justice that belongs to women. can you not get it? So there's all these ways that to me, like joy is the natural outcome of like knowing this stuff because everyone having opportunity, everyone being included, everyone being valid, like, yeah, that's, that's a place I want to be part of that. That's some, that's a world I want to exist within, right? And that's not the world I inherited. I was told that the world was

worse than that. And so when the world ends up being better than that, I'm like, what? Right? When everyone is welcome in hell, like what are you talking about? So I think for me, just the actual clarity that comes from knowing those things is in and of itself, the byproduct is joyful. It's a joyous experience after all the grieving and loss. If you can survive and get past that horrible part of the journey.

The sun shines a little brighter and people's journeys and experiences get to be more valid and fuller and their stories get to happen. You get to believe people. It's wild, you know what I mean? So anyway, to me, there's just like a whole world of possibility on the table once you no longer have to reduce yourself and everyone else to this rigid manmade filter. It's a joyous experience, yeah.

Alexis (49:34)
Ugh,

I can feel your joy through the screen. I just love it so much. It's just, it's such a beautiful thing. And I'm curious what you have learned about God through this process.

Mike (49:47)
Okay, so part of my answer to this is like, actually learned a lot about God while I was in the evangelical world. Through my own spiritual, I would say esoteric experiences, the word would have been revelation back then, right? These revelations that I was experiencing about God that were different than what I was told at church. Like God was better than what we were told and God loves people more than we're told and God affirms gay people even though we're told that they don't and that God isn't male. Like that was like a weird

shift for me. like, God being father, he, him all the time, I think is actually inaccurate. That's not fair. Some of the like discoveries that I've experienced in my journey, that's probably more what I want to say because I don't know that anyone necessarily told me this, but it's more like the outcome of my own processes after a lot of listening and reading and learning. Like I don't believe that God

Alexis (50:13)
Yep.

Toxic.

Mike (50:34)
Wants to be worshiped. I don't think God is after that I don't believe that God is a king or a monarch or a lord or a master I don't think that that's true of God I understand the language in the Bible is very much all of that so it's unbiblical for me to say this however, I actually think it's like the the arc of Revelation in Scripture actually points us to God isn't interested in these labels this hierarchy this power system is not God's idea. It's not who God is

all this glory we're ascribing to God. I think there's something beautiful and profound about it. However, we also put into it all this hierarchy that I don't think has anything to do with God, that is not in the nature of God. Love doesn't do that. And actually when Jesus talks about the Father and the nature of the kingdom, like God is actually the one who comes under. And God is not doing that performatively. That is the nature of God. God is the humiliated one, which I mean that in like a

redemptive way. Like God is the one who lowers themselves and is not looking to be venerated or uplifted or all the praise being given to them. God isn't interested in that. That is self-serving, I actually think. I think the whole worship thing is about us. It's actually our own unresolved issues that we're projecting and using God as a tool to cope with our own emotional upheaval. God is gracious and humble enough to allow it.

Right? But like God is not demanding that of anybody. So like to me that's like, that's wild. That is such a different version of God than I was ever taught to know or relate to. But that is actually a more honest, convicted experience I have of the person of God. And then this love does cast out fear because this is God is not judging us and is not looking. that to me was revolutionary to have to accept.

Alexis (52:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (52:22)
I was like, my God, if I'm going to be really honest, this is actually how I have experienced God for a long time. and really the thing that I'm walking away from isn't God. It's this controlling dictatorial hierarchical system that people made up and they use God to justify it. I'm like, if I don't want anything to do this, I don't think God does either. I'm going to stop. Yeah.

Alexis (52:26)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's just a lens. It's one lens.

There's so many thousands of other lenses that are different, and we get to choose which lens that we experience God in. It's funny how similar I feel to that experience that you went through.

Alexis (52:58)
friends, we're back. we did a costume change.

Mike (53:01)
Yeah, we look different now.

Alexis (53:03)
We look so different. Nice hat. Love that hat. Thank you. Thank you. It's the bun hair day.

Mike (53:05)
Thank you, nice one.

Listen, I had to go the last time we were recording and we weren't able to finish the interview because of my schedule. So that's why we look different. I apologize.

Alexis (53:20)
Well, or maybe we just did a costume change and we just really felt like an act two like, you know.

Mike (53:23)
Yeah, yeah, we just wanted

to flare it up a little bit.

Alexis (53:28)
Yeah, this was our auditions for the Golden Globes. It was like, you know, the next duo. They just had to see us in different costumes.

Mike (53:35)
This is ⁓

Alexis (53:39)
While we're on Golden Globes, let's just throw some of that out there right now, we connected just over a couple shows and some movies. I just wanna find out what are some of your favorite TV shows.

Mike (53:52)
Okay, so my favorite Little Fires Everywhere is really up there for me. I was also like on my journey of coming out when I watched it, so it hit in like a really important time. A lot of my political social views were changing at that time, so that was like a really helpful experience. So Little Fires Everywhere, Reese Witherspoon and Kerry Washington. Huge, love it. Also like a suspense thriller junkie. I love sci-fi as well. So Silo is up there for me, Rebecca Ferguson.

Alexis (54:09)
100, 100, yeah.

Mike (54:20)
I loved Paradise, it was like a surprise for me. Did you see that show?

Alexis (54:25)
So why am I bawling in paradise all the time? I am crying so much in paradise. It's so good. Yes, yes.

Mike (54:30)
Whoa, I think I teared up a couple times. Wow, I watched the first episode

by myself and I was like, it ended in a way I was not expecting, which I love when that happens. And so I stopped and I told some friends like, we all need to watch this together. This is gonna be good. So we did. And I loved it. was a ride. Other show. Is it? Oh, I don't even know about that. I like try not to know any of those things so I don't have to worry and wait and pine. And then when it's here, I'm like nice and pleasantly

Alexis (54:48)
Season two's coming out, I think, right? Yes. yeah.

Mike (54:58)
morning show, I'm a big fan. I don't know why, just like the chaos drama of that. enjoy it. The Righteous Gemstones is up there for me. That's not like my typical go-to, but that show was so funny.

Alexis (55:09)
I am on season four and I don't want to finish because it's so good. No, because it's so good and I don't want it to be over.

Mike (55:12)
Got it finished?

Yeah, I get that. Don't finish. Just leave it undone forever and you'll just have them in your lives for the rest of time

Alexis (55:24)
I've always wanted to talk to the writers and the producers actually on that show because I'm like, there are some Christians in there that like grew up because the nuance of

Mike (55:31)
Yeah, think Danny McBride is,

I think a lot of what they filmed is coming from his experience. His mom was in like puppet ministry for most of his life and he was crazy. Yeah, I don't know all of this, but I've read a few things like that. So I think he was a big part of it actually. But yeah, for sure there are people in the writing room who lived through that and they're like, this happened, this happened.

Alexis (55:41)
really?

Like

the rocket suits that they wore in the megachurch, and you're just like not that far off, not that far.

Mike (55:56)
Okay.

Yeah, it's like just enough to push it like, okay, this is absurd. But also you're like, but it sucks because like, it's not that far. Yeah. Also, this is kind of a guilty pleasure, but I love the boys. It's so gritty and dark and intense, but I find it so

Alexis (56:06)
so good.

I've never, no never heard of it. Tell me. Never heard of it.

Mike (56:17)
What, you never heard of it? God,

it's the goriest superhero show I've ever seen. It's so bloody and brutal. The superheroes are the villains basically in the story. It's so good, the writing is so good, the culturally, fascinating how they blend in the American political climate into the story and the characters. very gritty and honest and

Like, it's good. I don't recommend it necessarily unless it's like your thing, That wasn't my thing when I got into it, but I think the boys has just like done something to my brain and now I have a capacity for stuff like that that I didn't ever used to. Anyway, I love the boys and the spinoff gender. I never saw Ozark.

Alexis (56:56)
then you must love Ozark, right?

Now I get to give you the same look. What? Are you crazy? Jason Bateman? Are you kidding me, Laura Linney? my God. No, Ozark is your next. I promise you, give me two episodes. You're gonna be hooked. One of my top five of all time. yeah, 100%. the writing is incredible. The character development, You're gonna wanna keep watching and watching and

Mike (57:14)
Okay, I can do two episodes. Really? Why?

one of my new love languages as of this year is quality recommendations. So I'm taking that to heart. I will check it out. I'll check out two episodes and if after episode two I'm disappointed, you'll be hearing from me. Yeah, you're a wreck. No, I'm big fan of Jason Bateman. love Jason. He makes me uncomfortable in like important ways, you know?

Alexis (57:27)
it, I promise you.

100 % Okay.

then you can never trust me again on show recos. Jason Bateman, I'm rooting for ya.

Yes, he's

gonna make you so uncomfortable in this one.

Mike (57:54)
I just watched The Gift again since it came out in theaters like a week ago and God, he scares me because he just has this charisma and this like emotional intelligence and the way he communicates. You're like, want to trust this guy. He's obviously competent, but also like he could be sociopathic and I wouldn't be able to tell and it's scary. You know, like he scares me.

Alexis (58:13)
Yeah, yeah, that's kind of, he's good at that. And there's a little bit of overlap in that one. And yes, the gift is psycho. One more thing I just have to reference is severance. my God. do think?

Mike (58:25)
So good. Love I

feel obviously I feel a little biased now, but yeah, the show itself. I had been told for probably about a year from several people. need to watch the show. You're gonna love the show. Watch Severance. And I was like, I don't want to watch a show about people in the office. Like, that looks boring. And so then I watched the first episode, like I'll just give it a shot. And then I was like, what? I think when Helly woke up on that table in the beginning, I was like, what is this? And I got sucked in within the first five minutes actually.

And then I've just loved the joke. People were kind of critical of season two. I loved it. mean, it's so bizarre. I still feel very compelled to want to understand what the hell they're doing down there. You know, I love it.

Alexis (58:53)
I loved it.

I

am such a Severance freak that I listened to the pod, every podcast of behind the scenes. I know they have a whole podcast behind the scenes of it that has like all the actors on and that they talk about it they talk about like all the psychological implications of stuff. And my gosh, it's just the commentary on society, the commentary on our lives, the commentary on, you know, how people interact with each other and the expectations like at work versus outside work. It's nuts. It's so freaking good.

Mike (59:27)
Yeah, so good. The acting is great. The suspense thriller aspect, love it. Yeah, it's such a great show. you know what that is?

Alexis (59:33)
Yeah.

Don't know, here's where we're not gonna have a love language. I can't watch gory anything. Like I cover my eyes like this. I can't watch violence at all. I internalize it and I get nightmares. So most movies these days, like I have to, my husband has to sit next to me, which seriously, and I have to go like this. And then he tells me when a gory scene is over.

Mike (59:55)
need to rescind Begonia from the table then, because there are some moments in that movie that you'll...

Alexis (1:00:01)
Well, like,

I'm good. You know what you do? You listen to the music. And the music always gives away when, like, violence is over and when it's done, unless it startles you. But, just listen to the music. It's fine.

Mike (1:00:11)
Okay, there is a startling moment in that movie. So if you do watch it and you get got by it, tell me, I wanna know.

Alexis (1:00:18)
Okay, I'm gonna let you know. So exciting.

Have you had any kind feelings around what gives you joy and happiness on this planet?

Mike (1:00:28)
consuming really like great stories that are told well and like telling great stories. I'm into it. I'm a big fan. So that absolutely does fill me quite a bit. storytelling is huge for me. I just I'm like, how can I watch so many movies or shows like

What's going on in my brain that I can consume this so regularly? You know, I feel like I watch movies.

I know people who haven't been in the theater since 2019 and I'm like, ⁓ I don't understand that. What did you just say?

Alexis (1:00:53)
I don't comprehend you, but they probably do sports balls and I don't do sports ball. I don't

know anything about sports ball.

Mike (1:00:58)
yeah. So I guess to me, I'm like, some people don't seem to care about this like I do, but I think a lot of us do. And that is huge for me. Anyway.

Alexis (1:01:04)
Yeah, it is a great love language. You're right.

Mike (1:01:07)
you say you live in the Bay Area? I'm coming to Oakland in February.

Alexis (1:01:14)
For Ember? I'm going Ember. my God, cause that's so fun. my God, that's so fun.

Mike (1:01:15)
Yeah. We're going to see each other then. In person.

That's awesome. I was like, I was just like,

we need to I want to meet you in person anyway. That's great.

Alexis (1:01:26)
I'm so excited, yes, because I know Brian from doing this. And do you by chance know Roberto Che Espinoza? We're total buddies. And I'm trying to get him to come. And he's interested. So if you ever interact with him, let him know, because I think he would be so great to add to that group of voices.

Mike (1:01:34)
Is he gonna be a ember?

Oh, okay. I'm not against it. Yeah, I can fix it.

Yeah, totally.

Alexis (1:01:47)
Yeah, my God, have fun, Mike, that's great. Don't worry, I'm not gonna put all this on.

Mike (1:01:49)
Yeah.

You

could, I just don't know if people are gonna want to watch all this.

Alexis (1:01:56)
All right, Mike, so I'm curious, what gives you hope about where Christianity is heading?

Mike (1:02:01)
Okay, here's the thing. could ask me this at a certain point and I could have a very different answer. But right now, in light of this last year especially, I don't know that Christianity is done. Like there are a lot of people in my world who are like, who cares? I don't care. Let's bury the Bible. Let's be done with it. Let's be done with religion entirely. And I don't feel that way. I don't think that would be helpful. I think there actually is still a lot that humanity as a species still needs to glean from.

Like religion, Christianity, maybe I would say especially, like for me, the love your enemies, love your neighbors, forgive, that kind of thing is still incredibly necessary and relevant to us finding a better way forward together. so when it comes to like, what gives me hope about where Christianity is heading, I think seeing

public voices that are saying the quiet parts out loud that people have been wondering about or doubting or been afraid of for decades now. It's not scary or controversial to say those things anymore, to still identify as a Christian, maybe even belong to a Christian faith community and be able to say, I don't believe fill in the blank anymore. Or I don't subscribe to this idea anymore. I think scholarship and academia is a lot more accessible now than it's ever been, especially like in this area. So to me, I think that

There are faith communities right now who are trying to figure out how to do it better, how to do a different version of this that isn't, colonizing and racist and all the things. So to me, that really is exciting that there are leaders and faith communities that are on this journey still and trying to metabolize what it looks like to maintain their faith in.

Jesus and whatever expression that looks like whilst also engaging with justice and like social justice and like prioritizing and caring for the marginalized, especially with this huge MAGA Christian nationalist blight that we have. I think that's also forcing these faith communities to have to ask deeper, more intentional questions and find new practices. And I don't think that we've arrived, but I am hopeful that

There are leaders and communities like pockets. They're not huge, but I think there are many of them that are still in the trenches doing work. And I am hopeful that they're going to arrive at some new places that will start becoming normalized and that the term Christian will have a very different vibe, you know, 10, 20 years from now that people have a different association or assumption about Christianity based on what's happening in those spaces, because they'll become a little bit more predominant. That's what I'm hoping for. And I look forward to that.

I hope that happens. And then I hope that, we get to see this like practice of radical loving of the other and inclusion and intelligence incorporated into what it looks like to embody that in the world. the identity marker of Christian being associated with that. I don't think the answer is to throw it away. think the answer is to continue to find a better way forward with this faith component in our experience.

I hope that that's where we go.

Alexis (1:05:01)
those of us who are interested in being allies to people like you, like on an individual level. what do you think is helpful and what do you think is not?

So as an example, when people are saying things online, do you think it's helpful for allies to be engaging in those arguments and fights with those types of people who are spreading pretty hateful stuff? Do you think it's better to ignore that stuff

whether they're Christian or not, can people better show up on an individual level so that we can usher in a better life for you and for people who are like you? Yeah, I wanna know. I can't stand hearing my queer friends who go through this just microaggressive pain.

Mike (1:05:42)
How can I get a for me? Let's see.

Alexis (1:05:55)
And I just, how can we help?

Mike (1:05:59)
Yeah, thanks for asking. If you ask someone else, they might have a different answer, so I'm just going to give you mine if we're looking at the example of someone's posting hateful stuff against the queer community on social media or wherever, and an ally comes across that, I hope the ally gets in the way of that, says something, posts an intentional, well-thought-out comment, confronting the homophobia, the transphobia, the whatever it is.

helpful because there are queer people in the closet who probably are consuming the content that is being put out there and so then to see people in the comments showing solidarity for the people that are being demonized by the post you don't know who's seeing that and how like life because okay here's the thing when i was on my journey of coming out and starting to like try and listen to new ideas and new thoughts i was following people on social media that were saying things i wasn't allowed to think or believe

They were asking questions I wasn't allowed to ask. They were bringing answers to questions I wasn't allowed to ask. And so I never liked or shared or commented on their stuff, but I watched it a lot and I looked at the comment section and I saw that different attitudes are being presented. I saw people who were coming up from my perspective were like rebutting. I'm like, that's a good point. What did they say to that? Right. And then I saw further representation of what they were even putting in the post. And I was like, that's actually really helpful. The comments might not get likes

or responses, but they are getting viewed a lot of the time, And so I do think for allies, if they would represent solidarity and defense of the queer community, every chance that they get, I think that's really helpful. I wanna see that. I know I needed to see it when I was in the closet. Even now, like don't feel this huge need to be defended personally, but when I see people I know,

saying comments that are defending my community, I feel supported and validated by that. And it feels like a balm you know, just helping me feel validated and safer in this world that like often sends messages that it doesn't want me to be here. so I personally like prefer and would love to like crank up the volume and frequency of allies saying something, getting in the way of that stuff. I would actually like to propose that it's the allies job to be doing that more than it is.

You know, like straight people should be the ones advocating for queer rights more than queer people. We're a minority, you know, like, so yeah, I think that the people who get it to whatever degree they can and are part of the privileged groups should be the ones who are louder and more like intentional about saying something.

Alexis (1:08:21)
It's really important to know that, yes, the allies part of our job is that if you're in the minority group, that you should not be the only one just constantly going out and having to defend yourselves, that there are others. used to work in tech, and that's a very male-dominated area, where I won't go into it, but you can imagine women are... ⁓

looked at generally a little bit different for the same pay, for the same respect, for the same positions. It just is a little bit different, unfortunately. And the higher you go in most companies still, the more men and the fewer women you're going to see. And so we would have women's groups in some of the really good companies that I worked for that would talk about these issues and the men that would come to those groups, those allies. It was so important to us because we didn't just feel like we were alone.

We felt like there are men here they don't need to be here, but they were here to understand what we were experiencing, even though they didn't fully understand. And they could also things a little bit more equal and fair when they see situations in the workplace. So I totally get it.

Mike (1:09:26)
Yeah, exactly that for sure.

Alexis (1:09:27)
I'd like to ask you about some podcasts, people, theologians that have inspired you.

Mike (1:09:34)
Brian McClaren really helpful game changer for me at a pivotal time in my life. I've also had the privilege of getting to spend time with Brian in real life a few times and I love him as a person. So that also just like sweetens the deal. a new kind of Christianity was a big deal for me. That book was so timely and helpful for where I was in my deconstructing journey. Pete Enns has a book out called The Bible Tells Me So that was also like a game changer for me. So helpful and eye opening in ways that I needed it to be.

I'm currently reading a book right now called you contamination by Paul and Billy Hoard. they're a sibling pair. Billy's a trans woman and Paul's a cis white guy and they're writing about the like theology of disgust and the psychology of disgust and how and why disgust Plays out in our lives and societally right. and mentally and just kind of unpacking where that kicks in and why and what it's protecting us from and what we need it for.

ways that it's actually sabotaging our ability to transform and the positive way that contamination is actually meant to change us. Like that's the book is awesome and so good. I've heard them talk a few times and I cry every time they talk. It's so good. So that's like a fresh one right now. then also this one's not super happy, but I'm to throw in J.S. Park wrote a book called As Long As You Need. It's about grief, grieving. actually about to host a book club on this book to read through it with people.

grief to me is such a, an integral part of being human that a lot of us just don't want it to think about or talk about or address. Like we don't want to do it. And I personally also don't want to, it's so uncomfortable. It's painful. It's scary, but it's also so important and necessary for us to heal and to like be able to move forward. So I'm going to throw in JS parks as long as you need as another book that's like sitting on me right now.

Alexis (1:11:19)
haven't heard of those last two and I'm really interested in taking a look at those. And yeah, Brian and Pete have consumed everything I can from them. I love everything they have. Have you heard Brian's podcast, Learning How to See? He talks all about the different biases that we have and it's beautiful,

Mike (1:11:27)
Yeah

Alexis (1:11:37)
it really has given me a lot of positive and interesting ways of how we all interpret information and look at the world.

Okay, Mike, we are gonna go to the lightning round. A Christianese saying you wish that we would retire.

Mike (1:11:59)
This is probably cliche. Love sinner hate this in obviously. Super hits me weird because of where I came from with Bethel, but when people say blessings or bless you or God bless you, like, ⁓ stop. I appreciate this sentiment, but the vehicle, I want that to go away just because it was so icky and manipulative. A lot of the time at Bethel, it was like a replacement for saying something else. it just felt inauthentic and whatever.

I'm going to take that one because it just feels like weird and specific. Blessings, bless you, God bless you, my idea. Let's put that away. I don't want that. I don't want your God to bless me because I don't know what you actually mean by that. Most people who say that, I probably don't believe in the same deity they do.

Alexis (1:12:34)
a Christian-y saying that you still use.

Mike (1:12:38)
Interesting. I'm kind of a word person, I'm like, don't actually know if I have one, I'm not conscious of it. I don't think I still speak, even when I was in, there was a lot of Christianese I just didn't use, because I knew it didn't translate outside of our bubble, and I was like, I would like to be relatable to people who don't do this, you know? don't

Alexis (1:13:00)
okay, then let's ask this one.

What are some Christian-ese sayings that was in your bubble that maybe people may or may not even know? What are some of the sayings? Rattle them, any of them.

Mike (1:13:10)
⁓ God, I've... Okay,

let's see. I don't have grace for that. Does that make sense to you? okay. Let's see. The word anointing, the way anointing was used all the time, there's lots of different versions of that that like, what are you talking about? Spirit, there's a spirit of, mean, ironically, I used to be one of the people who did that because of the content that I would teach, but that got used a lot and thrown around in ways that I thought were very unhelpful.

god, Bethel. There's so much vernacular in Bethel I don't use and don't think about anymore, And I'm gonna be kicking myself tonight when I remember like 20 of these. I wish I would have said right

Alexis (1:13:47)
think things about how like, I'm gonna pray for you in that condescending way. Don't you see that all over the internet? People are like, I'm gonna pray for you. like in the angry way and you're like, aren't you?

Mike (1:13:59)
Yeah, or I pray that and then fill in the blank what they want to manipulate you to do or be

Alexis (1:14:03)
like, God told me this That can be real crazy.

Mike (1:14:06)
had so many people knew who God told them my wife was going to be. And I was like, God told you this? Okay, interesting.

Alexis (1:14:11)
Okay.

what is a spiritual practice that centers you?

Mike (1:14:17)
I think the most impactful answer or most impactful practice I can give for this is gratitude. I still thank God for things. and so yeah, it feels funny to me at times. At times I'm like, want to thank God for this, but like acknowledging even some of the silly things that I want to just express gratitude and appreciation for that still is very grounding and it hits me in a really positive way.

Alexis (1:14:27)
Yes, huge.

one thing that you wish every pastor understood about trauma.

Mike (1:14:46)
there are lots of answers to this. I'm going to say this one. I'm currently writing my memoir of coming out of evangelicalism and I got to revisit some PTSD this last week for the episode that I wrote. So this is fresh for me. I wish every pastor understood trauma is just how overwhelming debilitating trauma is and how sensitive it makes you to

things, then I wish that it caused them to slow down, be a lot more curious and patient and a lot less assumptive about what the person is experiencing or how they should be behaving. I wish there was way more awareness and understanding empathy around what trauma does to a person and how difficult it is for the traumatized individual to properly represent themselves or communicate.

or participate in conversation or social dynamics when they're still to this day find it really difficult to communicate what that experience is like. and so I, yeah, I wish that they had more of an awareness and practice of holding space for that. And when I say that I already know all these pastors in my head who would be like, well, you're just trying to create a way to enable people to be victims. I'm like, that's not what I'm saying. Anyway.

Alexis (1:16:01)
That's the trauma piece, right? I have those sirens going off in my head. I tell pastors that I interview all the time. I'm like, wait, wait, you said something and I can hear, you it's deep in there.

Mike (1:16:02)
problem.

Yeah there's a whole systemic worldview and like hierarchy that's built into this way of thinking and being in the world that uniquely like denies trauma and like the traumatic experiences people have had. And I, as a leader slash pastor, had to like retrain myself in some of this because I was also like insulated from these things and having empathy and compassion and patience for somebody who's traumatized contradicts and competes with

your priority and agenda as a leader with this system and hierarchy you're a part of and the things you have to get accomplished. Like these are incompatible. Anyway, yeah, problematic for sure.

Alexis (1:16:50)
Yeah. Do you have any kind of favorite youth group memory?

Mike (1:16:56)
Yeah, I've got a lot. I actually think the first time I ever crowd surfed was at youth group. Which is so much fun. Yeah, like my youth group. God, we I don't know their nights were basically like Christian rock out. And it was so cheesy, but so much fun to just like have that room with everyone you knew and loved and just acting like idiots together and there being enough of you that you could throw each other around. Like that was so much fun. sticks out to me as a fun.

Alexis (1:17:02)
⁓ so fun.

Mike (1:17:23)
memory. Like learning how to be social in that space was fun. I think I still have lot of positive memories of learning how to host conversations and introduce myself to people and welcome people into a space. Because I was the guy who like, you know, everyone knew me and I was really influential in that environment. So I felt like it was my responsibility to welcome new people. And so I got to, you know, learn some new life skills in that way that I appreciate and glad I got to learn that.

And then the other numbers that are coming up are not youth group related. more like camp and retreat type stuff. But yeah, lot of groups. ⁓

Alexis (1:17:53)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Talk about that.

Talk about maybe somebody's never been to a camp or a youth group retreat as a kid. What was a good memory for you?

Mike (1:18:00)
One time I was with my small group and we went on this retreat. And I don't know why there was a creek in the backyard of this house we were staying at and we brought a little trampoline out to the side of it and like jumped into the creek. But before we did that, I don't know whose idea this was, but we all stripped down to our underwear and then jumped into the creek and it wasn't sexual for me. I was like, this is exhilarating. This is liberating. This is so weird. Why are we doing this? But we're doing it.

That was really fun stood out to me as a bonding experience. And then one of my friends, we turned all the lights off in the house and a bunch of us sat in the living room and he walked around in the dark and was basically acting like some kind of horror movie character and cracking up on what he was doing and things he was saying. And we would quote him for years afterward. A lot of really fun memories from that trip especially. going to camp and having these...

competitions at the food hall and just like eating horrible things you would never want to ingest or like watching people stick noodles up their nose and out their mouth and flossing their like nasal cavity with like I was like, I don't how are you doing that? That's unbelievable. Or like I knew people who could like stick a toothpick directly up their nose completely and it would disappear and like I saw all this at church camp. You know what mean? Like I saw some weird stuff people could do. I learned how to do a backflip for the first time on the ground on the way to summer camp. Like we stopped at a

Alexis (1:19:17)
thing.

Mike (1:19:18)
I know a friend of mine thought I could do it. I was like, I can't. He's like, I thought you could. I was like, ⁓ but could I, maybe I should, I should be somebody who could do that. So I went and did it and it changed my life. And then I started like, you know, doing stuff down the road from, from that. But yeah, I learned how to do a backup on the ground at church camp.

Alexis (1:19:34)
Are you a Tumbler? Can you tumble?

Mike (1:19:35)
I haven't in a long time. I never did gymnastics, but I watched Power Rangers religiously. And so when I was a teenager, I was like, Oh, I'm going do this. So it started the trampoline and then it, and then like right before camp, I did that backflip. did like 20 times that night and literally the next day we were at camp and I could barely walk. It was so, well, my legs were shot. was like, that was sick. I like, couldn't really move. It was so painful.

Alexis (1:19:58)
⁓

Mike (1:20:03)
and then I started like doing backless off trees and off dunes and you know, it was more like parkour than tumbling. It was tumbling. But yeah.

Alexis (1:20:08)
Yeah, yeah, it was.

That's so scary, but I'm so impressed. my God, I would, yeah.

Mike (1:20:14)
Yeah, it's a lot of fun

rumors with friends at church events doing those kinds of things too, jumping off bridges, know, yeah. Anyway.

Alexis (1:20:19)
Yeah.

Did you guys do Chubby Bunny and Polar Bear?

Mike (1:20:22)
We did Chubby bunny. What is polar bear?

Alexis (1:20:26)
Polar bear, you had to go in the freezing creek and then go one polar bear, two polar bear, three polar bear. I don't know how we were allowed to do this kind of stuff. It was like the eighties and the nineties, you know? And Chubby Bunny apparently they banned too because it's not safe. I know.

Mike (1:20:39)
you

advocate on marshmallows or what?

Alexis (1:20:42)
I think they can choke, because we shove in as many marshmallows as you could get in. ⁓

Mike (1:20:48)
Wait, how long did you stay underwater when you were a polar bear?

Alexis (1:20:52)
I mean a few seconds because it was literally freezing water. But yeah, you got to the Polar Bear Club if you could get to like a certain amount of seconds. Yeah, I don't know why I did. Okay. Is there a worship song or a hymn that you feel like just

Mike (1:20:59)
Whoa, yeah, we didn't do that. I would not

Alexis (1:21:10)
really still hits you when you hear it.

Mike (1:21:11)
this is not necessarily a worship song. It's a Christmas song, but Holy Night still hits me in like a deeply sentimental, like the spiritual part of my soul. If that makes sense. I don't know. That song is really sentimental for me, in a deep meaningful way, but there are, I don't know. I guess I don't really listen to them anymore, but if I remember them and I, then I would play them on Spotify and just revisit that. there are several songs at Bethel that I

That was just like, super meaningful for me.

I don't have the same experience now because my theology has changed but also because of the people who wrote and sang these songs what I know about them now I'm like ⁓ we are not singing about the same person this is awful so that would like hamper the experience a bit but if I can separate it and sometimes I can there are I don't even know any of the names anymore I would have to hear the music I actually heard a song recently

On this like epic orchestra playlist I was listening to and it sounds so similar to a song we did at Bethel that I had my team do on some of the nights I was teaching and I cannot for life remember what the song was. I think Amanda Cook did it. Anyway, that would definitely be on this list. I don't listen to worship music anymore. sometimes it's triggering, honestly, you know, and that sucks, but I can listen to CCM.

Alexis (1:22:24)
Brian,

Well Brian Recker and I were talking about that and he was like, can we have some good music please in like progressive Christian genres? Wouldn't that be like so great?

will say there are a have a music on my Instagram page. And I've actually done interviews with a ton of artists who are amazing, Semler for example, John Guerra, Sara Groves, Derek And my hope one day is we can get like a whole bunch of musicians to do like a whole bunch of worship music. Cause I don't even feel like

Mike (1:22:45)
I you.

Alexis (1:22:55)
It's such a shame, cause don't you miss that, feeling and that connecting with the divine, but it, there's so much trauma in like those lyrics or whatever. Like, what can we do about that?

Mike (1:23:05)
Yeah, do miss, I mean, listen, Bethel an atmosphere, as critical as I want to be about the theology and the culture and whatever, the worship atmosphere at Bethel was phenomenal. And I do miss that, the corporate experience and the ambiance and the, God, the sound, was, yeah, it was incredible. And I wish I would go, I don't know if I'd say, I was like, I would go, but that's not true.

If there was a progressive version of that that had that kind of sound, I would 100 % be part of that. It's, yeah.

Alexis (1:23:38)
Yeah, me too. I think there's a lot

of people out there that would be

Favorite drag queen.

Mike (1:23:44)
Oh God. Okay, here's the thing. I don't dislike drag queens. That's not a great way to start. I don't watch drag race. I haven't. And I know that like makes me feel very not gay, but I don't know. Drag race, I feel like I missed the whole train of that. And by the time I was aware of what it was, like there was this whole subculture already developed and established that I just didn't know anything about it. Minimal exposure to that. So I'm not a drag race person, but I...

do appreciate drag as an art and I've enjoyed drag shows that I've been to in person. So favorite drag queen? I don't know that I have a Trixie Mattel shows up in season one of The English Teacher and I thought that was really fun. She was hilarious in that episode. And then I see her doing interviews or moments and I think she's hilarious. So she might be up there for me. Brita Filter, you know that is?

Alexis (1:24:35)
filter is.

Which I'm like a race fan so I'm like no I should know.

Mike (1:24:38)
Season 14. Yeah, I think

she was on season 14 of Drag Race. Follow each other on social media and they do a lot of activism. So I appreciate, you know, their platform and they just have such a dynamic presence human, you're like, whoa, this person has such big energy, you know? And I love that. And then Flamy Grant, of course, I got to throw in

Alexis (1:24:43)
Okay, maybe I missed that

Mike (1:25:02)
Big fan of Flamy But that's all to say, don't even know that I'm qualified to answer this question because I haven't been exposed to all the incredible drag queens in the world like most drag fans have. yeah.

Alexis (1:25:13)
We're busting stereotypes right now.

Mike, I just want to thank you so much for being with us on the Sacred Slope and for being so open and vulnerable in your platforms caring for the people who have been through a lot of pain. I am just so thankful. I wanted to end on one little story that I wanted to share with you.

mentioned my daughters last time, who are eight and 10, and we take them to an open and affirming church, And I mentioned you and that you were basically kicked out of the church and excommunicated from the church community. And my eight-year-old looked at me so serious and goes, why? It's a church.

And she couldn't understand it, right? And I just was so excited again to just be like, there is hope all around. She didn't understand that a church couldn't be the place that was everyone and especially queer people. ⁓

Mike (1:26:15)
That is the appropriate

response to that scenario for sure. I love that. Aw, thanks for sharing that. I love that. And thanks for having me on the show. I'm honored. I love what you're doing here. Aw.

Alexis (1:26:27)
I love what you're doing here too. And we can't wait to see each other in February. Let's just plug Brian Recker's thing.

Mike (1:26:31)
Yes.

Yeah. So we'll throw Brian Rekker's event Ember out and to me, Spencer Helms doing an event in Oakland in February. the Ember gathering. think I'm speaking on a panel at this event too. So like there'll be a lot of great people there and cool, obviously content to consume, think the biggest part of this is just going to be being able to be around like-minded people and connecting with this spiritual progressive affirming community.

I'm really excited and getting to meet people like this in person, know, like, yeah, that's going to be the biggest win for me for sure.

Alexis (1:27:06)
It's gonna be awesome. Well, thank you again for your work and your platform. And it's just been a pleasure chatting with you.

Mike (1:27:09)
Likewise.

Alexis Rice (1:27:21)
Thank you for being with us today on the Sacred Slope. If you'd like to nominate a pastor, priest or reverend, send me an email at Alexis@thesacredslope.com. Music was by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin and Sean Spence. I'm Alexis Rice, may the fruit of the spirit guide you this week.

Go in peace, friends.