23. John Fugelsang (Aspiring Christian) – Separation of Church & Hate

🎙️ 23. John Fugelsang (Aspiring Christian) – Separation of Church & Hate

Alexis Rice welcomes comedian, author, and radio host John Fugelsang (@johnfugelsang) — whose blend of humor, history, and theology cuts through America’s culture-war fog. His NYT bestseller Separation of Church and Hate challenges both the weaponization of Christianity and the silence that enables it.

With his trademark wit, John dismantles the TV-made binary, tracing how power keeps hijacking Jesus’ message—from the Crusades to cable news—and why faithful Christ-followers still choose empathy over empire.

💡 Key Takeaways
• Why corporate media platforms outrage, not nuance
• Proof-texts un-weaponized — Luke 22 & Matthew 25 in context
• Love as resistance: turning the other cheek ≠ turning off your brain
• Beyond binaries: global, diverse, love-driven Christianity

👤 About Our Guest
John Fugelsang is a comedian, actor, and commentator; host of Tell Me Everything on SiriusXM Progress (Ch. 127); and author of Separation of Church and Hate. He’s appeared on The Daily Show, CNN, MSNBC, HBO & Fox News—bringing scripture and satire into public life.

📚 Resources & Mentions
📖 Separation of Church and Hate — Simon & Schuster: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Separation-of-Church-and-Hate/John-Fugelsang/9781668066898
🎙 Tell Me Everything with John Fugelsang — SiriusXM Progress 127
🎧 The John Fugelsang Podcast — Apple / Spotify
🕊 @itskristinahart — creator of “love your neighbor Christian, not a storm the Capitol Christian” shirt: https://www.bonfire.com/store/kristina-hart
📘 Bishop John Shelby Spong — Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/rescuing-the-bible-from-fundamentalism-john-shelby-spongjohn-shelby-spong
🎧 The Nonviolent Jesus Podcast with Father John Dear: https://www.ncronline.org/news/nonviolent-jesus-podcast-john-dear
🪶 We’re Still Here — weekly Indigenous voices segment featuring Simon Moya-Smith (@simonsaidtakeapic) & Julie Francella (@juliefranciella):

Transcript

John Fugelsang (00:00)
TV is about getting ratings and they're terrified of saying anything that might offend someone and cost half a ratings point. So that's why they can't. And I'm sorry, the Democratic Party, not all of them, but most of them are terrified of this. It's like the comedy world. I had so many agents and managers tell me, don't talk about Christianity. It's a third rail thing. You'll never get on TV talking about it. And I knew they were right. But you know I wrote this book.

and the week it came out, all of my media appearances were canceled the first two weeks. And we still made the New York Times bestseller list for the first four weeks of this book's release. I mean, we did the Daily Show like the third week the book was out, and we had still made the bestseller list a couple of times because I do believe there is this audience. know, the TV would have you believe there's atheists, and then there's people screaming at women outside clinics.

Alexis (00:34)
Yep.

Yes.

Yes.

John Fugelsang (00:50)
And that's the binary we're offered in terms of spirituality in this country. And you know better than anyone what rubbish that is. mean, liberal conservative is not a fluid straight line. And there's so many of us that are conservative in some ways and progressive in other ways. I go in the book how Jesus was. But in this case, it's just the media.

has no interest in having people on to talk about the real teachings of Christ, but if it can generate some controversy and get some clicks and the clips can go viral, then they will. So a comedian like me who's willing to come out here and throw some jokes around, who has a social media following, I'll get booked easier than a theologian with credibility will on these very same shows. That's corporate media.

Alexis (01:33)
Okay.

John Fugelsang (01:34)
That's depressing, but right? ⁓

Alexis (01:36)
It's depressing

and yet the hope that I draw in that is that despite all the pushback, despite your cancellations, despite the media is how it is right now, people who are buying your book are giving a different story. People are ready for another story. People are tired of this back and forth. People are tired of the demonization. People are tired of this bullshit.

John Fugelsang (01:51)
Exactly, that's it. It's not them, that's not real. Yes!

Alexis (01:59)
I know it might be a little bit boring, but I do think that's why podcasts are becoming a lot more popular is because people are kind of over the sound bites and the click baits. They really want something deep. They really want something meaningful and they want to talk about this stuff And if progressive media doesn't get on board with that soon, I think that there's a huge missed opportunity

Alexis (02:22)
Welcome to the Sacred Slope, friends. I'm Alexis Rice, your host. And if this is your first time joining us today, I want extend a special welcome to you. Thank you for trying something new. This show has already been heard in over 28 countries around the world and nearly 500 cities. we know that Christianity, of course, isn't an American project. It's a global movement.

In fact, one in three people on Christian faith. It's lived out through thousands of denominations and countless expressions We all exist in a context it's important to realize that our context influences us no matter where we're from or what we've been taught This global body of Christ includes

male and female pastors, priests and reverends. It includes straight believers, queer believers, It spans every color, culture and continent. It includes those who are pro-choice and those who are those who side with power and those who fight for the vulnerable.

those who believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and those who believe in the big bang and evolution. It includes those who think the earth is flat and those who know that it's round. It includes those who baptize babies, people who baptize adults, and people who aren't quite sure what baptism means but still show up to love their neighbor. That is the body of Christ. And that's who this podcast is for. It's for the spiritually tender, those of us

who were raised in Christianity, who were rooted in Christianity, no matter where we are right now, no matter what we call ourselves right now. And if you were told asking hard questions would put you on a slippery slope, what if that isn't a slippery slope at all? What if it's a sacred journey? And what if that slope is sacred ground?

wrestling with faith isn't rebellion. It's how we learn to love more honestly. And today, that's exactly why we Fugelsang John has the rare ability to walk into any space, media, politics, comedy, theology spaces, and talk about Jesus, history, and power with intelligence, courage, and clarity. He's creating an alternative way to stand up.

for the values that Jesus actually spoke about, to stand up against the meanness, the hypocrisy, the hate that so many of us are feeling being enforced upon us now. When you invite John Fugelsang to a Christian podcast though, John's still gonna Fugelsang. Thank God for that. Let's get started.

Alexis (06:09)
Welcome back to the Sacred Slope, friends. Today, I'm joined by someone whose career and voice defy easy categories, John Fuglesang. Hey, John.

John Fugelsang (06:19)
Thanks for having me, Alexis.

Alexis (06:21)
Thank you for being here. John is a comedian, actor, commentator, playwright, author, and one of the most compelling moral voices in American media today. His new book, Separation of Church and Hate, A Sane Person's Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock Fleecing Frauds has been a decade in the making. And it lands in a moment when both the right's weaponization of Christianity and the left's silence about faith are shaping the public imagination.

He's the host of SiriusXM's Tell Me Everything and has made countless appearances on Bill Maher, The Daily Show, CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News.

He's interviewed legends like Paul McCartney and George Harrison and hosted VH1 specials that shaped a generation of pop culture.

I can't wait for us to learn more about his bravery and moral clarity in this moment. So John, welcome

John Fugelsang (07:14)
I'm just here to tell dick jokes about hypocrites. That's really it. I don't claim to be a moral anything. ⁓ Reprobate, seriously, that's what it says on my ID. But thank you for having me. I am a Jesus freak, I used to brag I was Christian. Now I say I aspire to be someday. So that's where I'll go. But thank you, Alexis, for having me. It's great to be here.

Alexis (07:34)
let's start with talking about how you grew up. We know that you grew up as the son of a former nun and a former Franciscan brother. And that's, I think that's such a unique lens of faith and culture. And I'm curious about what are some of the beliefs and traditions that Franciscans hold actually that formed you. So when we hear the word Franciscan, like what does that mean beyond the robes?

John Fugelsang (07:56)
No one ever asks about that. Thank you. My God. Anybody who's known Franciscan clergy will know this is a great question, especially if you're fans of St. Francis of Assisi. For me, one of the first great Christ followers to resist Christian authoritarianism.

St. Francis, of course, served in the Crusades, realized this was garbage, and left and preached nonviolence, and even walked across a battlefield unarmed to host peace talks between a Muslim sultan and the Crusader army. So Francis is...

One of the most popular saints, the Franciscan Order, was founded in Ireland in the 1800s, and they came over here with the intention of opening schools. The Franciscan brothers were there to be educators, and everything that comes with it, sports and all that. So my dad entered the brothers about a year after finishing high school. He had gone to St. Francis Prep as a kid. He grew up poor and was an altar boy.

and the priest said, know what, you're too tall to be an altar boy anymore, but I'll let you come to school for free, because I know you're such a good guy, my father was always...

deeply into Jesus, but once he became a Franciscan throughout the 50s and 60s, he became passionate about social justice in ways his dad was not. And my dad came to revere Gandhi and Dr. King and Dorothy Day of Catholic charities. ⁓ As a Franciscan, his name was Boniface and he taught history to Catholic boys at St. Francis Prep in New York City and coached basketball, coached football, all that.

My mother was a nun at the time and she was a nurse sent to Africa to work with lepers in Malawi. But before they sent her to Africa, they stationed her briefly in Brooklyn where my dad met her, fell madly in love day one, knew he was not allowed to ever fall madly in love, so never said anything, but became very good friends with this quiet Southern girl and a nun Sabbath and pen pals when she went off to Africa. And it's a very long story, but after about 10 years,

he talked her into quitting the convent and going on a date. And they raised us on Long Island to be progressive, free-thinking Catholics. When I was about, I don't know, very small, my dad pulled me out of bed late one night and dragged me down the hallway to watch the late news. And I didn't understand. We weren't allowed to stay up late. What is this?

My mother was out working and late. On the news was the replay of Jimmy Carter earlier that day signing the Camp David Peace Accords between Israel and Egypt. And my dad couldn't believe that an American had brought peace between Israel and Egypt and that they were embracing it. It was gonna last. And he wanted his kid there to witness a Christian, a Muslim, and a Jew embracing. It was everything that Christianity could and should be to him. So that's the model that I was raised with.

And I grew up thinking that Christianity is about the stuff that Jesus talked about. Looking out for the less fortunate. know, going to the margins and going to see who's the lowest of the low and treating them as you treat Jesus. Empathy and service and forgiveness and love, even your enemies. And like millions, I grew up to find that movement of love had seemingly been hijacked by a rather mean fundamentalist tax-free clique. So that's a very long answer to your question.

Alexis (11:10)
That is the context that we want on this podcast one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you in this moment is because how I saw you talk on The Daily Show with Jordan Klepper you

talked about the history of the Christian resistance versus Christian authoritarianism. And that is totally what I've been talking about in the last year as well is, you know, the Cory ten booms of the Nazi time and the Harriet Tubman's during slavery. I really want to unpack that.

It's so important, especially in this moment when we're feeling like, hey, we're Jesus people. I don't get what's going on because there's so much authoritarian Christian talk that feels like it's overpowering and it's not the faith that we understand and recognize. so I'd just love to hear your understanding of history and those characters and history that you take inspiration from for this moment.

John Fugelsang (11:49)
Yep.

Well, I wrote this book for anyone of any faith, any atheist or agnostic or any believer who's ever gonna have to deal with a far right-wing Christian fundamentalist or Christian nationalist. These are the people who are now trying to force a very narrow, very right-wing, rather Jesus-free version of Christianity onto every level of our society and government and culture. And if you've ever watched Fox News and looked at these nationalists,

and said, Jesus Christ, these people are the opposite of Jesus Christ. Well, I wrote this book because you're not crazy. They don't fight for the teachings of Jesus. For the last 45 years in this country, two generations of Christians have been raised and groomed to prioritize criminalizing abortion, which Jesus never mentioned, over

all the things Jesus actually did mention. All the things Jesus commands us to do. In Matthew 25, he makes it very plain in the parable of the sheep and the goats, also known as the judgment of nations. He will gather individuals and nations. And the ones who go to heaven will be the ones who meet his four criteria. You take care of the poor, you take care of the sick, you welcome the stranger, and you're kind to those in prison.

That's it. And then he tells the goats who talk a good game, but don't as a society welcome the stranger, help the poor, help the sick, or care for the prisoner. You guys are going off to hell. I mean, this is Jesus giving his marching orders. You'd think ultra conservative Christians would quote this all over the place, but they don't because the sad truth is right wing Christianity in America.

for many years has been suckered into this long con of aligning with power instead of challenging power as Jesus did. Jesus' entire movement was about humility, servant leadership, the last shall be first. Right-wing Christianity is about the opposite. It's not about the stuff Jesus talked about. It's not about religious freedom. It's not about fighting Satan.

It's about conservative Christian dominance of society and government. Conservative Christian power, not the things Jesus told us very specifically about how we're supposed to treat each other. So when you consider that, the entire history of Christianity makes a lot more sense because the whole history of the faith is authoritarian Christianity that uses it for power versus the Christ followers.

go back to the beginning, go back to the Roman Empire when they took over 300 years after the death of Christ and Paul, and Christianity now goes from being this little persecuted sect to being an imperial religion that can persecute smaller sects. And suddenly, Jesus's movement is being used to justify violence against pagans, against Muslims, against Jews. And the Crusades begin with all of this embarrassing Pete Hegseth, God wills it crap, of saying, well, we don't have to do what

Jesus tells us if we're doing it for Jesus. We can slaughter thousands of these non-Christians and it's okay because we're doing it for Jesus and we're going to force Jesus on these people. So it's okay that we are setting fire to his actual commandments about how to treat other people. And that was when St. Francis, a Christ follower, quit and said no. You get the doctrine of discovery.

And the Pope says, go forward and rape all lands and take their materials and subjugate the people and enslave them if you must, but force Christianity on them, it's all for God. So you got Columbus slaughtering and mutilating and raping the Taino people in the shadow of the cross. And it was the priests on his mission that gave the first ever act of protest by a white person.

in this hemisphere. Father Bartolomeo de las Casas, who was on Columbus's last voyage, they think, he did a whole sermon and wrote to the queen about how I've never seen such barbarism and cruelty. They like to say, Columbus did no better. No, they knew better. Jesus told us how to treat each other. He was a conquering Christian, a conquistador Christian, like the crusader Christians and the Christ followers resisted. Fast forward to slavery, propped up by Christianity.

Alexis (16:14)
You

John Fugelsang (16:20)
many presidents, slavery flourished for so long because the Christians were convinced it was sanctioned by God and it was the Christ followers like Frederick Douglass or Harriet Tubman or the Quakers, never forget them, they're the most awesome Christians throughout our country's history. They fought back. Look at the Holocaust. That's a Christian nationalist society and you had Christian martyrs like Dietrich Bonhoeffer giving his life for his Jewish brothers and sisters in resistance because he was a Christ follower.

They viewed Jesus as the violent Jesus just like the Crusaders did. They put God is with us on the belt buckles of the Nazis. They weren't fighting for anything Jesus talked about. It was power. Segregation.

Same thing. They used everything they could use to possibly justify segregating the races and having this apartheid system. And it was a Baptist minister from Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Dr. King, who used the scriptures as a Christ follower to shame white America out of it. And look at the last 30 years, how many of us have talked so many parents and grandparents out of so much homophobia. There is an incredible history of real Christian activism, but it's always in resistance to Christian

authoritarianism. That's our whole history and we see it playing out today. What side are you going to choose? Are you going to do the Jesus with Empire? That's the conquering religion that punches down on minorities? Or are going to be a Christ follower and stand up for the lowest of the low and refuse to hate and actually fight

for the marginalized as Jesus actually commands. I mean, these guys don't follow Jesus, and you don't need to believe in the Bible as a literal fact to use the scriptures against them in debates. This is their camouflage, their religious piety, and they don't fucking follow this book. So I wrote Separation of Church and Hate as a guide to camouflage removal because they can go ahead and fight for all this authoritarian nonsense. They can't pretend they're on the side of Jesus.

Alexis (18:18)
that is breathtaking. It's exciting. It feels hopeful because it feels like this is not the first time that we're going through this. Right. And and for the people who are Jesus people who are so utterly disoriented, like you talked about, there are ways that we can learn from people in history, from heroes in history about how to speak up in the name of Jesus over and over again to speak up for the least of these and the marginalized.

John Fugelsang (18:41)
Yeah. Yeah.

You

don't need to believe in any of it as literal fact. mean, on immigration alone, on immigration alone, you've got to throw out the Old Testament and the New Testament. Try this with your racist uncle. The whole book is just about arguments and the points that they use. So the God of the Old Testament. Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't have standards on who comes in the country. I'm not calling for amnesty or open borders. That was Ronald Reagan who called for those things. But my issue is the criminalization of migrants. I mean, if you're standing on American soil, it's legal to claim asylum

And yet we call these people illegals. They're Christian refugees. And if you call them that, it'll really piss off the right people. Likewise, you know, they always go after the illegals for crossing the border and taking these low-wage jobs. They never go after the white people who hire them. And that's how you know it's all a racist scam. The Republican Party will never take down the help-wanted sign at our border.

Alexis (19:31)
Yep.

John Fugelsang (19:34)
I mean, they have a carve out for agricultural workers right now because they know as they terrorize brown people at church picnics, if you got rid of all of them, a salad would cost $75. So Trump is deliberately not going after the illegals. So it's all a racist scam and we know this. ⁓ So I just say, you know, to my uncle racist, the God of the Hebrew scriptures commands the Israelites to welcome the stranger and says they must treat the alien as one of their own. Jesus goes even further and says the way you treat the

Alexis (19:45)
Mm-hmm.

John Fugelsang (20:04)
the stranger is how you treat him and commands us to welcome the stranger heaven or hell, individuals and nations. So please tell me, Uncle Racist, why should I listen to you and Donald Trump and reject God and Jesus? I mean, issue after issue, you can't be a homophobe and pretend you follow the sermon on the mount. It's like if these people are going to stand and try to control our country because they're so goddamn pious, you're allowed to whip out the holy book and see if they really mean it.

Alexis (20:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's one of the reasons actually I created the Sacred Slope is it's a take up the slippery slope, right? are in that kind of mindset, there is this pressure to stay in that mindset to not accept people who might have different thoughts. so what I like to do is lift up pastors and priests.

sound like your parents that are from all over the world in different denominations who actually the vast majority of them don't take the Bible literally, they take it seriously. That's a quote from the Bible for Normal People, Pete Enns and Jared Byas so it's very much about...

John Fugelsang (21:00)
Right.

Alexis (21:06)
uplifting Christians in this media environment and even people who are not necessarily Christian, but really do believe in the morality, maybe they were raised or rooted in Christianity and still follow those values as their North star.

John Fugelsang (21:20)
Exactly.

Well, they say they say the largest growing religious group in America are Mormons. Some say it's Islam and some say it's none of the above. But I wrote this book because I think the largest growing religious group in this country are people who were raised religious, but now consider themselves spiritual because they're so turned off to all this meanness of men in dresses and funny hats.

Alexis (21:34)
Yes.

I totally am with you on that.

something that you said on the Daily Show was about how the left and progressive media have often been hesitant to talk about Christianity or Jesus. And I have picked up on that too. So I have my own theories, but that is one of the reasons that I think it's so cool how bold you are about this stuff in progressive spaces, in more liberal spaces, and you're willing to bring up Jesus. And there really is a hesitancy to do that still.

John Fugelsang (22:07)
yeah.

Alexis (22:07)
even in the government, for example, Democrats are around over 50%, in the last election, over half of them are still House and the Senate, it's about 70, 80, 90 % declare themselves Christians. but like, you wouldn't even know that. There's a handful of people that go out talking about how their faith in Jesus determines our progressive values.

John Fugelsang (22:14)
Yes.

yeah.

Yeah, a handful. they're great. And they have a lot of great books. And it's almost impossible for them to get on TV and talk about it. Because let's be honest, because nice people are boring. Nice people coming out here saying we've got to treat each other the way Jesus said.

Alexis (22:31)
But like, yeah.

So why do you think that is?

John Fugelsang (22:48)
Who wants to listen to that? Is that going to get clicks in corporate media? Is that going to get eyeballs in this ratings-driven landscape? No. We'd much rather have some hypocrite douchebags on to scream about welfare queens or gay people or feminists. I learned this as a kid. They didn't put Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson on TV because they were such incredible agents of the teachings of Christ. They put them on because they were excellent villains. It was hate-watching. They knew liberals hated

these people and they kept putting them on TV. I never knew Jerry Falwell had been a segregationist until after I met him because the TV never told me he'd been a segregationist. I just grew up watching him on TV, introduced as a Christian leader. So this is why, right? Like villains get a better time on the media and TV news is not going to ask questions about what's actually in the Bible. Imagine if they did. Imagine if Mike Pence is out there with his whatever religious freedom act and they say, excuse me, sir, we're in the book

does Jesus drive the gay wedding cakes out of the temple? Think about the amount of fraud. Where specifically does Jesus give a penalty for people who end pregnancies? he doesn't? Well, what about the Bible? ⁓ it doesn't? Well, where specifically does the Bible prohibit you from ending? abortions are legal and free in Israel right now because the Bible never specifically bans them? Do you hear this on TV? No.

TV is about getting ratings and they're terrified of saying anything that might offend someone and cost half a ratings point. So that's why they can't. And I'm sorry, the Democratic Party, not all of them, but most of them are terrified of this. It's like the comedy world. I had so many agents and managers tell me, don't talk about Christianity. It's a third rail thing. You'll never get on TV talking about it. And I knew they were right. But you know I wrote this book.

and the week it came out, all of my media appearances were canceled the first two weeks. And we still made the New York Times bestseller list for the first four weeks of this book's release. I mean, we did the Daily Show like the third week the book was out, and we had still made the bestseller list a couple of times because I do believe there is this audience. know, the TV would have you believe there's atheists, and then there's people screaming at women outside clinics.

Alexis (24:47)
Yep.

Yes.

Yes.

John Fugelsang (25:02)
And that's the binary we're offered in terms of spirituality in this country. And you know better than anyone what rubbish that is. mean, liberal conservative is not a fluid straight line. And there's so many of us that are conservative in some ways and progressive in other ways. I go in the book how Jesus was. But in this case, it's just the media.

has no interest in having people on to talk about the real teachings of Christ, but if it can generate some controversy and get some clicks and the clips can go viral, then they will. So a comedian like me who's willing to come out here and throw some jokes around, who has a social media following, I'll get booked easier than a theologian with credibility will on these very same shows. That's corporate media.

Alexis (25:46)
Okay.

John Fugelsang (25:47)
That's depressing, but right? ⁓

Alexis (25:49)
It's depressing

and yet the hope that I draw in that is that despite all the pushback, despite your cancellations, despite the media is how it is right now, people who are buying your book are giving a different story. People are ready for another story. People are tired of this back and forth. People are tired of the demonization. People are tired of this bullshit.

John Fugelsang (26:03)
Exactly, that's it. It's not them, that's not real. Yes!

Alexis (26:11)
I know it might be a little bit boring, but I do think that's why podcasts are becoming a lot more popular is because people are kind of over the sound bites and the click baits. They really want something deep. They really want something meaningful and they want to talk about this stuff And if progressive media doesn't get on board with that soon, I think that there's a huge missed opportunity

we said, the vast majority of people who are in power, liberals and conservatives,

actually raised and rooted in Christianity. We know about giving a cold cup of water to a person that you don't know. We know about caring for the least of these. We know that Jesus said, put away your sword, he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. Like this is...

John Fugelsang (26:39)
That's right.

Yeah.

A lot of folks don't know that part. lot of folks don't know that part.

I have a whole chapter

about how they mutilate Luke 22 to make it seem like Jesus was pro-weapon. Most people don't know it's Jesus who says, who lives by the sword will die by the sword. And the NRA doesn't exactly recommend you carve that inscription on your weapon. Luke 22 is one of the most abused passages in the whole book. Jesus says, sell your cloak and buy a sword. And as with most cases of right-wing people, they take that one line and ignore all the context and go say, Jesus wants you to arm yourself, sell your cloak and buy a sword. When you actually read the story, Jesus is saying,

We have to get arrested tonight. We have to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah. He was numbered among the transgressors, so sell your cloak and buy a sword. We need it as a prop. The apostles say, well, we already have two swords, Jesus. He's like, OK, that's enough. Then we don't need any swords. And then they come to arrest him, and Jesus doesn't resist. And in Matthew's account Peter draws a sword. He who lives by the sword dies by a sword.

But when you only read the one line, it's kind of like overlooking that well-regulated militia part in the Second Amendment. You can take one line out of context and use that to believe whatever you want to believe. It's the whole actual Bible in general that has a lot of themes in it that are consistent that our right-wing friends are very scared to take on. And arming yourself, look, I'm not saying, you know, Jesus is against self-defense, but the whole notion that Luke 22, sell your cloak and buy a sword, any guy who says that literally

Alexis (28:06)
Yeah.

John Fugelsang (28:16)
hasn't read the very next line where they say we have to and Jesus says it's enough nobody goes out to buy late-night swords at the Bethlehem Walmart you know what I'm saying but they'll weaponize it and twist it to say we need to have more civilian access to AR-15s because I'm so pro-life

Alexis (28:34)
Yep. And that's where I'm looking for people who are very well versed in the Bible, in the Christian faith, all over the world, who are saying, OK, that's one lens, that's one interpretation. But I've interviewed clergy pastors who are trans, who are lesbian, who are am finding Christian voices outside the US so inspirational.

now Iceland is being led for the first time in history by a female president, female prime minister, female mayor and a female bishop, right? What can we learn from them? And they're all queer affirming and they're walking with people in a very different lens in a very different way. The Archbishop of Canterbury the fact that we have a woman for the first time in 500 years that is leading the Church of England, this Pope,

John Fugelsang (29:09)
day.

Alexis (29:19)
who is willing to stand up and say, there is another way to look at immigration.

John Fugelsang (29:22)
This pope,

this pope is willing to have less money put in the baskets on Sunday. That's the thing that's impressed me the most. This pope is willing to have right-wing racist Catholics not throw a few dollars in the collection plate. And that's what has impressed me most about him so far. But you're right. These are all great examples. And homophobia itself is, I wouldn't say it's unchristian. I'd say it's anti-Christian because you cannot be a homophobe and say you believe what's in the Sermon on the Mount.

It's all about humility. It's not about total domination of the school board or that one class of people is any better than another. I the whole notion that you're better than gay people or better than Muslims. And I mean, I go really deep on this. And there have been a lot of books that attack all the clobber passages in the Bible and how they don't really hold up. But I just wanted to contribute my voice to my take on that, because there is no part of the Bible anyone can use to say that being gay is a sin.

Nobody follows Leviticus. Nobody follows Deuteronomy. Sodom and Gomorrah is not about consensual gay people. Neither is Romans. And most likely Paul's not talking about consensual gay men in Timothy or Corinthians. But again, Paul's not Jesus, so who really cares what he says, right? Paul is the meaner guy. And people who wanted a less woke voice in the New Testament will turn to Paul to justify homophobia, to justify misogyny, to justify thinking you're better than other people because they'd like to get around.

Jesus and Paul is not Jesus and should not be used as a substitute.

Alexis (30:55)
Absolutely. so interesting is on social media in the say decade, I don't know what happened a decade ago to spur this massive social media explosion, but there are so many Bible scholars who, by the way, the vast majority of Bible scholars out there convey exactly what you've just conveyed. The majority of Bible, yes, yes.

John Fugelsang (31:13)
scholars, they're not cult members, they're not superstitious

cult members who are terrified that if you challenge their devotion to myths, it'll make them a bad person.

Alexis (31:21)
Yes, and there are so many in the mainline denominations. So think about the United Church of Christ. Think about United Methodist. Think about a lot of Lutheran, a lot of Presbyterian, a lot of post-evangelical, Church of Iceland, Church of England. There are so many different denominations. There's actually over 45,000 denominations in the world of Christianity. One in three people, yes, and Quakers as well, right? So there is no one lens.

John Fugelsang (31:27)
Yeah.

Yeah, Quakers do.

Alexis (31:46)
that is correct. one person, no one party, no one group of people holds the corner on what it means for Christianity.

John Fugelsang (31:47)
correct.

And yet, and yet, if you've lived in...

You're right, but if you've lived in America in the last 35 years, you'll think there's only one kind of Christianity. By the time I got to college, mean, if you told people you were a Christian, they assumed, ⁓ so you hate gay people and you think the government should force citizens to be pregnant against their will. And I mean, that's it, right? If you're Christian, you want to criminalize abortion, you hate the gays. That's number one and two, even though those two things have nothing to do with Jesus's ministry. It's a branding problem and the Democrats aren't going to save us and the media is never going to

ask the tough questions. It's going to be up to the rest of us convincing our family and our co-workers and that douchebag high school friend we still know on Facebook who can't spell your correctly, convincing that guy that hate is not a Christian value and that your homophobia is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus. you want to show me where Jesus says to criminalize abortion? I'll show you where he comes out directly against the death penalty. Let's see who comes up with an answer first.

Alexis (32:24)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

There's a comedian she's a Christian and has a saying on a t-shirt that she sells and it says, I'm a love your neighbor Christian, not a storm the Capitol Christian.

John Fugelsang (33:00)
But that's it, right? mean, beating cops for a lie is acceptable to these folks. Donald Trump's racism, Donald Trump's sexual abuse, Donald Trump's long history of anti-Semitic tropes, Donald Trump's theft. I mean, he stole from veterans with a fraud online university. I got to a point with the MAGA folks who call my SiriusXM show, I just cut to the chase and say, can you please...

give me one gospel teaching of Jesus that Donald Trump fights for or the MAGA movement fights for or the Republican Party has fought for in this century. and verse please, something Jesus, and this is what I recommend, your viewers should try this with their loved ones. Give me one. The number one issue I get is abortion. And I'm like, where does Jesus say anything about abortion? He does not. Abortions are legal and free in Israel. Right now.

because the Bible never bans them. I'm sorry, I didn't write it. Jesus bans executions. And they'll say, no, he doesn't. And then, know, yeah, multiple times he overturns eye for an eye in the sermon on the mount. These people don't know the Bible. So the number two answer I'll get is a strong border.

And I gotta say, where does Jesus say, keep out, where does he say, repel the stranger? These are the no room at the inn Christians. And I'm really sorry, but keeping people out because they're poor or speak the wrong language is pretty much the opposite of everything Jesus stands for. So, know, again, he commands us to welcome the stranger in Matthew 25. They don't know the book. So the third most common answer I get is, Donald Trump moved the American embassy to Jerusalem.

Alexis (34:35)
Mm-hmm.

John Fugelsang (34:35)
Seriously,

and then I gotta say, actually in the gospels, Jesus never mentions the United States or where our embassy should be 2,000 years from now in the year 33 AD. come up. They haven't read the book and they are counting on you not having read the book and that's why I wrote this book.

Alexis (34:54)
Okay.

John Fugelsang (34:56)
And you don't have to hate them. You don't have to ever hate them back. In fact, if you're going to debate these people, you have to model turning the other cheek. If you're just trying to show them up and slam them and win the debate, no. You got to love and you got to be the civil one because you're not trying to win them over. You're trying to win over their wives and their kids and everybody else at the cookout or the Thanksgiving dinner. You're trying to model civility and just asking questions. Well, if this is true, if you believe in Leviticus to say gays are bad, do you believe that adulterers like

Donald Trump should be stoned to death as Leviticus 20, 10 commands? Just asking questions and agreeing on the core values of Jesus' ministry. Love, empathy. Yes, but you don't need to hate them. You don't need to get into big screaming arguments and when they get mad at you, you can be totally chill and loving and just say, well yeah, where does Jesus say that? You can be the relaxed one and show the rest of the table what the gospel looks like as opposed to what control looks like.

Alexis (35:35)
while you're eating your shrimp and playing football, by the way.

of the things that's distinctive about Christianity, like what's different is we're commanded to love our enemies. sometimes I just want to start there. one of the hardest things as a human to want to do. We want to hate our enemies, right? So what does it mean to model loving our enemies? And how can we really apply that moving forward?

John Fugelsang (36:06)
course.

That's an example I think I see in the book of how Jesus is actually kind of conservative. I mean, he's so liberal in so many ways.

But then he comes here and he, know, when he, the Sermon on the Mount, the closest he gets to a catchphrase, you have heard it said, but I say this, you have heard eye for an eye, but I say turn the other cheek. And he says, you have heard, do not hate someone, but I'm saying you love your enemies. He's challenging them even more. He's going even more conservative saying, no, no, no, that's not enough. The new way is you're not even allowed to hate them. Oh, before it says you shall not commit adultery. I say you shall not ogle women with lustful looks. He goes even further into this

conservative thing and he's so liberal in so many other aspects. But yeah, I mean his whole mission is not about judgment or control. It's about transformation.

That's Jesus' whole act is about transforming yourself and going beyond the laws and rules of your own religion into a deeper kind of love. That's why he fulfills the covenant. He doesn't trash the covenant and throw it out. He doesn't denigrate the Judaism that raised him. He says, have fulfilled it. And now I bring you this new covenant, which means y'all get to have bacon and keep your foreskin and drop the homophobia. I mean, the guy's not a dick, you know, it's the whole thing.

If you're trying to use Jesus to justify being a dick, Jesus is not going to back you up. The end.

Alexis (37:35)
Okay, what I'm wondering about were about 90 million people who did not vote in the last election who were eligible, right? That means.

John Fugelsang (37:41)
Yeah. And it was still

a pretty high turnout for America, too.

Alexis (37:45)
Yes. And yet there were 90 million people who said, you know, I'm not going to go vote for Donald Trump. I'm not into it. But there's something in the Democratic Party that is just rubbing me the wrong way. And so I'm just I'm just going to stay quote neutral. I'm going to sit out. And I'm very interested in what about those 90 million people?

John Fugelsang (37:53)
Yeah.

Alexis (38:05)
Why did they sit out on something that, you know, if you're on the left, you view this as the most important election of your lifetime. If you're on the right, you view this as the election.

John Fugelsang (38:11)
Yeah, consistent with everything. Completely consistent with everything.

First off, I'm not a Democrat. I've never belonged to a party. I've only seen Democrats get the White House in this country after Republicans trash everything. Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Joe Biden. Democrats don't get into power when things are improving. Never. in my lifetime.

Alexis (38:21)
Yes!

John Fugelsang (38:31)
Carter got in because of Watergate. Clinton got in because trickle-down collapsed. Obama got in because Bush really was the worst president of all time and might still be. And Joe Biden got in because Donald Trump was an absolute disaster. during COVID, a lot more of us were watching the news. Keep in mind, it's always one-third is progressive, one-third is conservative, one-third is apathetic. That's how we've always been. Revolutionary war.

One third of us wanted to be loyal to the crown. One third of us were revolutionaries. One third didn't care. It's how we've always been. And it's a billion dollars each side spends every election to get that apathetic board one third to move one direction or another. And they did in 2020 because we were in a plague and people were home and much more engaged with the news. People took the time to send away for their mail-in ballot because they had time on their hands and weren't distracted by having a life. We had much greater

Alexis (39:00)
Hmm

John Fugelsang (39:25)
participation in our democracy. And when you have greater participation in democracy, Democrats win. Joe Biden got more votes for president than anybody in history. Having said all that, if we'd been in a plague and all homebound with mail ballots in 2024, I think that she would have won. But for all of this hemming and hawing, I'd like to point out this woman was in this race for 100 days against the most famous man in the world, mixed race woman, 100 days, and she gets the third highest vote total.

of anyone who's ever run for president in the history of, I mean, she got more than Reagan got, more than Clinton got, more than Barack Obama, Kamala Harris got more votes than Barack Obama did either time he ran. Donald Trump has never cracked 50%. Every time, 2016, 2020, and 24, the majority of people who have shown up to vote have voted against him and his agenda. Even last year, very narrow, 50.

Alexis (40:02)
and

John Fugelsang (40:20)
points, whatever percent, but he's never had half the people who've shown up say, yeah, this is a good idea. So he has no mandate. Things are not as bad as it seems in terms of her popularity. She actually did amazingly well considering the history and the statistics and the trends. And the reality is that Democrats get elected after Republicans screw it all up. Now, Donald Trump in his first term ran up the deficit more than any president in the history of this country. And he's going to do even worse this time. He's going to break his own record.

And Epstein's not going away and the tariffs are still raising prices all over the place. And it's great that the Israeli hostages came home, but he's not really caring about Palestine. We're not seeing any kind of movement for any kind of justice or a Palestinian state, which means this is all going to keep on happening. IDF killed five people today in Palestine already. So I I hope to ceasefire lasts, but at the end of the day, Donald Trump is going to be the one.

whoever replaces him if he's not still on the ballot, that's going to dictate turnout. Trump couldn't save them in 2018 or 2022. So 2026, it's going to be like the last two midterms. Trump won't be on the ballot and it's going to be a lot of angry Americans. We'll see what the Democratic Party leadership looks like in January of 2027 because who those guys are now, it's going to be different people. So we'll see how that new team looks.

Alexis (41:44)
Speaking of that new team, one of the things that I've been really interested in that gives me hope is seeing people like James Tallarico, like Pete those guys have been expressing Jesus's message, like you, by the way, being out there in the public, in media, talking about Jesus's messages of servant leadership, lifting up the marginalized, and challenging systems of power.

John Fugelsang (42:06)
Yes, that's what, that's technically the conservative Christian point of view, what Jesus actually said. Not aligning with power or sucking up to it, but challenging it.

Alexis (42:06)
So.

So why do you think this moment is starting to allow for more progressives and moderates to speak the Christianese that we speak more fluently in the public square?

John Fugelsang (42:23)
I don't know, I

couldn't tell you because these voices have always been out there. I read Bishop John Shelby Spong's, Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism like 25 years ago and it totally blew my mind. And I barely ever saw him on TV. I had to book him on my TV show to get him on TV. These voices are out there all the time. And like I began our time by saying, it's really hard to get them on the air.

Because peace and love don't get the clicks. you know, whenever America's gonna go bomb another third world nation of brown Muslim people and we always bring on the generals to talk about how we're gonna take them out.

Cable news doesn't book peace activists to talk about other alternatives. It's ratings driven. That's what's gonna get on the news. And so that's why in this democratization of information that we have with online culture, there is a chance to get all kinds of new voices heard, just like there's a chance to get all kinds of new music heard too.

Alexis (43:02)
Yes.

That's a place with new media now. So cable news only has so far that it can take But just like the people who bought your book, the people are speaking about what they want to hear about and talk about. So how can people keep up with your then as we close today, I'd love to hear a little bit about some people that are really inspiring you right now.

John Fugelsang (43:21)
You got that right.

My name's John Fuglesang. My book is called Separation of Church and Hate, a sane person's guide to taking back the Bible from fundamentalist fascist and flock fleecing frauds. I host the evening programming on the SiriusXM Progress Channel 127. If you don't have SiriusXM, we're also a free podcast the next day called the John Fuglesang Podcast. And I have a sub stack that I'm hoping to get back to someday when the book tour ends.

so many people I admire. So many of them I've gotten to speak with on this book tour as well. Great, great, really intelligent, progressive Christian podcasts or just people who don't even use labels like that or just seekers your the Father John Deere and the Nonviolent Jesus podcast is a great one. I have a feature I do every week on my show every Thursday night, a segment called Still Here.

Indigenous voices, Simon Moya-Smith, Oglala Lakota journalist, writes for The Nation, and Julie Franciella, who's an Ojibwe of Batchewana First Nation in Canada. And every week we just talk about Nations issues. And when I first pitched this segment to my producer, they were like, how are going to fill up an hour on that every week? And not only do we, because the First Nations people who are now

barely here in their own stolen land have insights on everything from Palestine to healthcare policy to how we treat gay people that I think the rest of us can learn a lot from. And like that segment has become the most popular segment of my whole show. We're apparently the only national radio show that has a weekly indigenous affairs segment. But like, I'm just here to learn. I don't pretend that I'm some smart moral person. I just know the Bible really well and I like calling out hypocrites, but.

That's Simon Moyers-Smith and Julie Franchella who are both on Substack and I learn a lot from them as well. shows like yours, Alexis, shows that don't dumb it down for a spiritual audience. Because you know you don't have to for people who actually have faith and aren't just looking for validation and confirmation and superstition, but actually the messy, scary work of critically looking at scripture and addressing how that affects policy and how we treat each other in our civic life.

Alexis (45:43)
John Fugelsang, my husband who is from the Netherlands said, does he know that his last name means bird song, yes he does. And I was thinking about that today about how the song of a bird is something that is universal that everybody kind of relate to.

And that bird song can fly and filter through all of that is who you are. And I know you don't want to be called a moral figure of our time, but I'm going to stand by it.

John Fugelsang (46:02)
I love

my name does mean birdsong, but I just use that to tell, I tell gullible, attractive Danish women that Twitter is named after me. That's really the extent of my service in that regard. But thank you, yes, my name is very difficult and anything that can be spelled with F-U, my name has been misspelled as. yeah, thank you. Please thank your husband for me, please.

Alexis (46:31)
John Fugelsang, thank you for being on the sacred slope today.

John Fugelsang (46:34)
Thank you.

Alexis Rice (46:39)
Thank you for being with us today on the Sacred Slope. If you'd like to nominate a pastor, priest or reverend, send me an email at Alexis@thesacredslope.com. Music was by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin and Sean Spence. I'm Alexis Rice, may the fruit of the spirit guide you this week.

Go in peace, friends.