18. Rev. Helen (Church of England) – From St. Phoebe to Today: Women as Leaders, Science & a Kinder Christianity

🎙️18. Rev. Helen (Church of England) – From St. Phoebe to Today: Women as Leaders, Science & a Kinder Christianity

Alexis Rice welcomes Rev. Helen —a Church of England priest serving at St. Margaret’s, Ipswich—and our first guest from outside the United States. With warmth, candor, and a fierce pastoral heart, Rev. Helen shares how her late-in-life call to ministry grew from community, story, and wonder—and why an inclusive, justice-rooted Anglican faith speaks powerfully in today’s world. Stay til the end if you would like prayer.

Together, Alexis and Rev. Helen dive into:

• How the Church of England works (parishes, bishops, General Synod) and  the monarch’s role
• Women in church leadership—from St. Phoebe (Romans 16) to women priests and bishops
• Science & faith in the UK (Big Bang, evolution) vs. often evangelical creationism—and teaching kids the Bible with genre and context
• Practicing an inclusive church for LGBTQ+ and neurodivergent people, and why visibility matters
• Public perception of Christianity in Britain: “quiet revival,” everyday parish life, and service to the whole community
• A UK view of U.S. Christian nationalism—and the hope of ordinary Christians choosing love over power
• A pastoral prayer for listeners who need comfort, courage, and blessing

💡 Key Takeaways

• There have always been women in leadership in the church—see Romans 16 and the early deacons and apostles.
• Context isn’t compromise. Reading Scripture with history, culture, and genre in mind deepens faith.
• Science and Christian faith aren’t enemies. Many UK Christians embrace both without tension.
• Parish means everyone. The Church of England exists to serve the spiritual care of the whole neighbourhood.
• Inclusion is pastoral, not political. An affirming, accessible church reflects the wide welcome of Jesus.
• Hope looks like small, faithful acts—prayer, presence, and practical love multiplied in community.

⛪ About Our Guest
 Rev. Helen Prior Townsend is an Anglican priest (Church of England) and Assistant Curate at St. Margaret’s Church, Ipswich. A liberal Anglo-Catholic, she weaves Godly Play, story, and sacrament into family ministry and champions women’s leadership, LGBTQ+ inclusion, and neurodiversity-affirming worship. Ordained in 2024 after serving as a Licensed Evangelist, she brings a grounded parish lens to life, liturgy, and public faith in the UK.

📚 Resources Mentioned

• James Talarico @jamestalarico (Running for US Senate- Texas) https://jamestalarico.com/
• St. Phoebe — woman servi

Transcript

how do people are in your denominations and in the UK, respond to that idea still common in many churches, that women in church leadership is not biblical and it's not Christian?

I would ask them why do you think that? Because I think it's always good to get down to where that actually comes from. Was it something they've always been told? Was it, because women in the early church weren't? Because then I can come back to them and say, you know, yesterday was St. Phoebe's Day. It actually was. She was a deacon in the church.

Paul introduced Romans chapter 16. So there has always been women in leadership. And some of it may come from being brought up in churches where they didn't see. And if you don't see, then you don't think it can happen. Some of it comes from sexism and misogyny, which you can then talk about with people. But actually just opening a Bible and saying, look, there were women.

why are we thinking this now? And just cause of why people think that, I think it's really, important. And I have to really take a breath. I haven't had that conversation like that with someone, but I would have to take a really deep breath before I answered. Instead of being like, well, because I am here, because God called me, which is true.

actually opening up conversations and I think when people feel listened to I might not change their mind but at least they will go she listened and she heard me and actually she told me a couple of things that I didn't know before and our church is always evolving and hopefully a lot of that's being stamped out now

It took a long time to get women priests in the Church of England. It took a long time to get women bishops. So it's a generational thing.

a generation of women priests. We haven't done a generation of women bishops yet.

Hey everyone, welcome to the sacred slope. I think I just wanted to say that we're living through some really difficult times. And I know for Christians who are Democrat or progressive or more liberal,

or maybe you're outside the US and that's still on the right in your country.

it seems to be very difficult when there are people all around us who are taking a lens of Christianity and making it into something that a lot of us probably recognize because we were raised in it and steeped in it. But then to watch it make an attempt to force

its way onto others. That's the part that I really don't think that we even recognize. The call of Jesus that we were raised with was a gentle invitation, right? It was seek and you shall caring for the poor and the orphan and the widow and the were known to be kind.

And I don't know why that has become less of a priority. But one of the things I think that can help us is to expand our lens, expand our worldview, and see a little bit more of the world like God sees the world every day. Because God looks at the world and sees all of God's creations, every single person.

I think about how God handcrafted each one of us to be so unique, right? Like our fingerprints were hand designed to be eyes, our hair, all in this beautiful genetic pattern that leads us to us. And in the end, God is the artist. And to me, any attack on any human

is just spitting in the face of God. And so I just we can find a way forward that is rooted in love. If we speak the words of Jesus, if we want to follow Him as Christians, I pray that we love our neighbors as ourselves. That is how we love God with all our heart and all our mind and all our strength.

and I pray that we do our best to produce the fruit of the Spirit.

So today I'm gonna help you zoom out worldview a little bit.

I really wanted to talk to somebody that was not in the US as we start our journey learning from people in other countries to be able to get a fuller picture. that is one of the ways that I learned more about God and about who God is and about how there are so many people on this earth who think differently and

worship differently and have different opinions on all kinds of things, I've been fortunate enough to have traveled a lot in my life. I've traveled to over 30 countries. to Southeast Asia, to Central and South America, traveled a lot in North America, and I've lived in Europe in the Netherlands and in Spain.

and I speak Spanish and Dutch. I have had the experience of being an immigrant, of being a foreigner, of being someone that can't speak second language or a third language, as well as my native language, and being just disoriented culturally. And that has also given me a vast appreciation for God's beautiful earth.

it has helped me understand that what we might think is normal is so cultural. We are products of our cultures. We're products of how we celebrate Christian faith. We are products of that culture at that time. And we get to choose which lens we want to celebrate and worship God through. there are thousands of denominations that will help us do that. there are

millions of people that dedicate their lives to helping us do that. So if you feel right now super disoriented and by the faith you thought you knew, by the people who somehow don't see, I want you to know

That does not mean you are losing your faith. It does mean there might need to be some reevaluation of the local church space that you have allowed yourself to be surrounded by. And that's completely okay. It's totally fine to find another church another denomination another way of thinking. So today I'm gonna help you do that.

go across the pond from the United States to England and we're going to talk with Reverend Helen, who's from the Church of England, the Royal Church. I just want you to remember when things feel foreign to you, that also means that what you're saying

often feels foreign to them. And it's very interesting to have conversations like I challenge you this week let's drop our pride. Let's try to seek humility. Let's try to seek understanding. When we don't understand something, let us not choose fear. Let us choose curiosity.

that does not mean we're going to agree with everything that we learn and see, but we at least need to be educated, be humble, and not pretend like our way of viewing the world is the only way to view our Christian faith and our world. Let's make this place kinder, because right now I really believe that Jesus is crying.

I heard James Talarico say there was a theologian that was screaming about the deaths of the children in Palestine, like, God, where are you? And then he realized that God was screaming, where are you?

So I really hope that we can take that forward in this moment, continue the beautiful work of standing up for the orphans and the widows and the vulnerable and the marginalized to care for those who need help and to look around and find opportunities to be kind. How can we love our neighbors as ourselves this week? All right, without further ado, let's get started.

Welcome back to the Sacred Slope, friends. Today, we are welcoming Reverend Helen Prior Townsend. Reverend Helen is a Church of England priest and the assistant curate, at St. Margaret's Church in Ipswich in the UK.

Helen is also wife to Richard and mum to 16 year old Chloe. Reverend Helen's journey to ordination began in adulthood, shaped by parenting, preschool groups and holiday clubs and a growing sense of a vocational call. During the COVID-19 lockdown, she trained as a licensed evangelist through the diocese, we're gonna get to that word later, of St. Edmundsbury and Ipswich before discerning a call to ordained ministry.

She was ordained in 2024 and now serves in a vibrant 14th century Anglican parish where liturgy and daily life intertwine. Known for her warmth, creativity and inclusive theology, Reverend Helen identifies as a liberal Anglo Catholic and is a vocal ally to the LGBTQ plus and neurodiverse communities.

She brings the narrative richness of godly play into her ministry and is passionate about expanding spiritual imagination, especially among children and families. Reverend Helen is a strong advocate for women in leadership, as well as spiritual formation rooted in story, wonder, and community. So in this conversation, we're gonna explore what Christianity looks like from the UK.


That's

from the other side of the Atlantic, from where I sit in the United States in California, and how the Church of England functions as a public institution with bishops in parliament and how British clergy view American Christian nationalism, as well as how everyday Christians in the UK are reimagining what church can be. So Reverend Helen, welcome to the Sacred Slope.

Mm-hmm.

Thank you very much Alexis, thank you for that introduction. ⁓ It makes me sound ⁓ like I do amazing stuff, ⁓ which you know I probably do but when you hear someone say it it's just like is that me? That is me!
That is you.

Yes, and that's why I'm so excited to talk to you today. So thank you for joining us. I'd to start out by hearing about your journey and your faith into ministry and especially someone who came into faith later in adulthood and what discerned that call for you later in life.

⁓

Well, I was brought up Roman Catholic until I was about nine. So I went to Roman Catholic primary school, which is the school you go to from five to 11 over here. My parents left the Catholic Church when I was about eight or nine for varying reasons. They did go over to the Church of England, but I never did. And I was very much anti-church and didn't believe in God. God doesn't exist.

What a waste of space, know, they just are after your money and all of this stuff. I did kind of dabble into Buddhism. I did feel like spiritual in some way, but never kind of put my finger down on it. and then I was pregnant with my daughter and it was really weird. I was about six months pregnant. I was in our town centre on my lunch hour and there was this cross necklace in a window.

of really lovely jewelers. And I used to pass that jewelers every day, like going to get my lunch. And it kept like catching me. And I was, I was a bit like freaked out by that because I was like, I don't, don't do God. What's going on? And then I kind and one day I just went and bought it and I was just like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to buy this. But when my daughter was about a year old,

I'd tried another church but my husband was just like, are you going to church? I was just like, I feel like it. I would take Chloe, she was like, before she was one, and then we moved to churches because the way I went to wasn't really child-friendly and my friend went to St Margaret's, where I still am now, which is very unusual. She said, they have a half-hour service and the kids are all in there and it doesn't matter if they scream.

and they make noise or run around. So that's when me and Chloe started going to St Margaret's and I found a whole new community of friends, of welcome and kind of Jesus just fell into my life. And within about six months I was helping out. You know, I was on that list to help out at the service when we put everyone in groups and started doing a bit of leading over the years, started, helped start a cafe church.

Hmm.


which did stop obviously for COVID and stuff. And then I restarted it after COVID and that's still going once a month. then I felt a call to something, but I wouldn't accept that it was ordination or the priesthood. Cause I wasn't, I would, no, no, no, no, no. I've got a job, I've got a family, my husband doesn't go to church. Chloe was kind of getting out of church at that point.

So I train to be an evangelist, which in our diocese, which is our area, so it's like Suffolk is our county. So our diocese is most of Suffolk. We have lots of different lay ministries, like ministries that, you know, normal people can go into. You don't need to be ordained, but you have some training. And I trained to be an evangelist, which is like taking the word of God out.

the church and I really thought that was my calling. But then God doesn't shut up does he if you're not quite in the right place and I was like, I always describe it as I was like batting him off, like no, no I'm an evangelist, I'm working full time. So I took a job working for our diocese, so our area of the Church of England.

in the ⁓ ministry team is like an admin doing logistics for different courses and I thought well this will shut God up because I'm now working for the Church of England, this is fine. But sat opposite me, diagonally opposite me was the Dyson, Director of Ordinance is his posh title.

My friend Stuart is his other title. He's basically in charge of all of those people who go into training to be priests. So I thought I would shut God up by going into this job. No, God puts me opposite the person who's in charge of the training.

after two months I was like okay then and then it all started that is how it's happened over the last like 15 years

15 years. All right. And so when you were like, I feel called to lead a church, were you in then an environment, it sounds like, that said, well, you're a woman and that's fine. Or were...

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. We...

Yeah, sorry. Carry on, Alexis.

No, no. So I mean, I assume that you didn't get hit with, I feel like God's calling me to lead a church and you were not in a place where they said, well, where's your husband? He needs to do it and you can be a helper or no, we believe that, not even we believe, God says, no, women can't lead church.

Not in that environment at all. We hadn't had a female priest at St Margaret's before. Before me, actually, there was another curate who's like a trainee vicar, basically. You do... After your training, you then do three years in a parish or benefits, which is either with one church or a group of churches. So they'd had a curate before, not someone in charge who was a woman, so, like, in the position I'm in now. But they had had what's called a reader.

which is like a lay person who can lead services but not do communion, who could do funerals, lots of pastoral care, things like that. So we've had a female there before, but there'd been no woman in charge. We do have a woman in charge now. we have Sarah, who is wonderful. But no, in our part of the Church of England, there is no issue with women.

in leadership. There are some churches in the Church of England that don't have women in leadership at all, who won't have women priests still. That was kind of like written in because women, last year was 30 years since we could have women priests in the Church of England. written into like that agreement was that some churches could opt out of that. And there are some churches who do opt out of that. And that's fine.

That's fine. That's, you know, one of our biggest cheerleaders in Ipswich actually is a priest who is a priest at a church that doesn't have women priests. So I don't think everyone's like that, but my experience is that even though we have churches that don't have women priests, they can be real cheerleaders for us who are women in ministry. So I don't think everyone's experience is the same.

But that's my experience. FJ is amazing, Father John. yeah.

mentioned the Church of England a couple of times, I will say from the, you know, from the perspective and vantage point of the feel of course, like we are very entrenched in UK culture, right? Like we don't,

Mm-hmm.
We don't have real royals, so when the royals actually do stuff, that's as close to royalty as we can feel. We've movies and TV, and yet we don't really know what it's really like necessarily. you mentioned the Church of England. I think most people have probably heard that, but don't really know, we don't have the Church of the United States.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.


can you just help us understand a little bit of the history


So basically, the story that everyone hears, and this is how we broke off to become the Church of England. Henry VIII was married to his brother's, brother who's passed away wife, Catherine of Aragon. He wanted to divorce her and marry Anne Boleyn. The Pope, because we were all Catholic country at that point, wouldn't let him. Henry VIII goes, I'm not having anyone tell me what I can and can't do. So splits off.

from the Roman Catholic Church and there the Church of England was born in 1534. So that's like the short quick, that's what happened. And it is quite funny that it kind of, there was probably more of a catalyst, there was like other things going on in Europe at the same time and stuff, but the main Catholic we all know of is Henry VIII wanted a divorce. So our church was born

through divorce, which is quite funny with some people's attitude towards divorce these days. But that's the simple story. And so the Church of England is really intertwined within our culture, whether people go to church or not. The king or queen is the ultimate head of the Church of England. So when we are ordained, we have to swear allegiance. So I had to swear allegiance to Charles III.

and his successors is one of our oaths that we have to take. He obviously was enthroned and his coronation was done by the then Archbishop of Canterbury, who's like the head of the Church of England and also the head of the Anglican Communion, which is the worldwide Anglican Church. So that includes the Episcopal Church, the Church of Scotland, the Church of

Wales, and all over the yes, so that's the Church of England. It's so entrenched in every... We have parishes which are like a certain area of each town or village. So there is a Church of England presence in every parish in this country, whether people are aware of it personally or not, there is. And we get what they call the cure of souls.

So that is, we are there to look after people's faith and spirituality and wellbeing. And it's not everyone who, it's just the people who walk through our door. It's the people in the area where we are serving. So it is everybody. So if someone dies in our parish, at St. Margaret's, they have the right to have their funeral at our parish. If they live in our parish, they can get married at our church and get baptized at our church.


Hmm.

So there is real links that are intertwined within our culture over here with the Church of England.


when the king or the queen is the head of the church in England, what specifically does that mean? they get to set the tone? Like, for example, when women were allowed does that go through approvals of the king or the queen?

Is that kind of separate? Okay. ⁓


Not that I know of. That's all those

kind of things. There's another word which I'm going to use. All those things are agreed by what we call General Synod, which is people who are elected from across the Church of England, clergy, bishops, lay people, members of the get together, who are voted in from their areas that they live in, and they decide the rules.


Okay.


The King has to approve all of our bishops. So we've just had a new bishop announced a couple of months ago because our last bishop here retired and they're people who are in charge of an area of the church. So Suffolk and where I live. So she would have been put forward and then she was put forward to the King and the King has to say yes or no. then Downing Street, so where the prime minister live, they then announce

new bishops which is... do you know what it's it's like when it's entrenched in your culture and your life you don't think of it like it's really complicated that's just like what happens but when you try and explain it you're like this just sounds utterly ridiculous

Gotcha, okay. Wow.


But that's the way it is. And we've got our first female bishop in Suffolk starting in a few months. So we've only had men before. So we're very, very happy.


Wow. So she's the head


we're still waiting to get a new Archbishop of Canterbury, who's in charge of everybody, haven't quite managed to get one yet. It's been a while.


Maybe it's going to be

you.


No, I would not wish I would. ⁓ thing is, I said I'd never be a priest and I said that out loud and look at me now. I think bishops, all the bishops I've met have always been such wonderful people. Our previous bishops here in people, big part of the training that I did. But no way would I ever want that level of responsibility.

Mmm. ⁓


I want to be

down and talking to people and, you know, getting dirty.


I love that. tell us a little bit more about the public perception currently of Christianity in the UK. and how does that affect your ministry?


I think things are turning at the moment. They're talking a lot in England about a quiet revival. There's a lot more young people coming to churches. We've seen young people, they're talking like under 30. But there is like more of an interest than there used to be. And I think, and I've read as well, that that's coming from like the world's in a really weird place. There's lots of horrible things coming, going on.

but also the pace of life is crazy. people are online all the time, know, that 24 hour news cycle that you're supposed to be really busy all the time to create like a successful life and all of this stuff. And actually spiritual life is becoming like, ⁓ people are more interested. And we're seeing growth where I particularly am and where I am serving now, we're seeing growth.

which is wonderful and there's been a lot of work in Ipswich over the last seven years. We've had a lot, we've had money from the National Church to start new stuff and that's been really successful in many ways. But then I think on the opposite to like the good news, which I can see happening, we're like nearly every week, we're like, there's some new people. you have to make sure that you're friendly, but not like

jumping on people going, you're new, how exciting. you know, because you don't want them to be scared and run away. You want them to know to come back to Jesus. And there are people who've moved and have come to our church because they've moved into the area. But on the flip side, there is also this level of suspicion. I think there has been issues with safeguarding, you know, sexual abuse and other types of abuse that

have unfortunately happened within the church and weren't dealt with the way they should have been. A lot of that practice has changed massively in the last few years, which is really good. So we've turned a corner, when people hear a story about the church, most of the time it's because people have done something wrong. Someone in power has abused that power in some way.

You know, the papers want bad news, don't they And unfortunately, there's also, things about megachurches. We have megachurches in England and that's where some of the issues have stemmed from as well. But also, you know, when people hear about some megachurches in the States and the money and, you know, all this extravagance and stuff like that, which we purport not to believe in.

Mm-hmm.


that you're supposed to give and all of that stuff. So I think it's a double-edged sword. But when I walk down the street in my collar, I have had some abuse. But what I've also had are smiles and conversations from the least likely people that you would think I would have that from. And that's where I'm actually on the ground walking through and being visible. I wear my collar all the time when I'm working.

Not everybody does. choose to, one, as a woman, and two, because I'm visibly showing people who I am and what I am. some people's reactions are bad. Most people's reactions are really nice, know, I've had some guys stop me in the street last Sunday and go, how are you? Good, hope you've had a good morning. I'm like, thanks, never seen that man before in my life.

how beautiful, you know, and if I can make a difference by just smiling at someone or just randomly being there to talk to, that's what I'm here to do at the end of the day.

Hmm.

Hmm.

⁓ that's so beautiful. So I have in-laws who are from the Netherlands, they're Dutch, and I lived in several years. And so I've learned about Catholic traditions or Protestant traditions in Europe. I was speaking with one time family member in the Netherlands is that as a Christian, again, they were also raised Christian,

in laws who are from the Netherlands. ⁓


that we were taught in a lot of our spaces to not trust a lot of science. And what I mean by that is we were raised that you have to take the Bible literally. So when we see a science film and it's saying that earth was billions of years old and then evolved from, know, to what it is today, that we, came from


Mm-hmm.


instead of Adam and Eve, it was very pivoted towards you can't believe that because that's of the world and you have to believe what's of God, including the Big Bang, which was just people who didn't understand God. we were raised to distrust science. so that has so blown up, as you can see probably, especially in the US, where people

don't understand, like, why wouldn't you trust science? And I think what a lot of people don't understand is that we were literally trained from very, very young to not trust science, that it was not of God, truly, And I'm just curious what that's like for your faith.


For me, I didn't know what creationism was, which is where people just believe the Bible, right? Didn't know what that was until I was in my 20s. Like that version of things. I always learned that Adam and Eve and stuff like that was a story about explaining the way that the earth appeared, but it wasn't true.

And I know there are people who just believe in, we're only like 3000 years old or whatever in this country as well. And I'm just, I find that so weird. I believe God created the universe. He set everything going. So what I personally believe and other people I'm sure believe along these lines that God created everything to make the Big Bang happen. And for us to then, and evolution to happen and,

all of that to take place. But you know, dinosaurs were here millions of years ago, they were not here at the same time as humans, it always makes me laugh.

When you're like, no, my dad was, I just, I don't, I personally just don't get it. My dad was very religious man. He was a lay reader in the Church of England. He grew up in a Catholic household, but he was a scientist, you know? And there are a lot of scientists, although now I'm talking about them, can't remember their names, who are?

who are Christians who have faith as well. I don't get creationism, it's one of those things. But then people sometimes assume because you're Christian that's what you believe because that's what they've on the internet. Well you don't believe in evolution. I do! You're homophobic. No I'm not! So it's one of those things I just don't understand because I've never even had.

heard of it, being brought up Catholic, you know, in Catholic schools, none of that was taught at all. confuses me.


yeah. So would you say the average Christian in the UK or in Europe, Christian, Protestant, Catholic, any denomination, a Jesus person, someone who loves Jesus, do you think in general in Europe it's more common


Mm-hmm. Someone who loves Jesus.


to believe science understand that the Big Bang and that evolution is the way that we arrived at where we are now.


Yeah, in my

absolutely. Yeah. I don't think I've ever spoken to someone who doesn't believe that. So, ever. Not that someone's admitted to me. So, no.

ever.

Got it.

Yeah, okay. So what's helpful of that is just helping us get outside our lens sometimes in the US and just saying, hey, there's more than one way to believe in the Bible and being a Christian. And I think that's gonna take me then to the literalism part, because this is where this starts to unravel for a lot of people and how a lot of us are set up very incorrectly as Christians because we were set up as

⁓


we were growing in our faith that you got to believe all of it, you know, it's not true. So if you can disprove one thing and there's a whole, you know, Apologetics system that's set up to defend the faith. But what that actually means it's to defend the literal interpretations of the faith.


Mm-hmm.


So what does faith look like? Like, how do you talk to kids about the Christian faith when they're reading stories in the Bible, when you're teaching them about God, when you're teaching about Jesus? How do you talk about it?

you have to, it depends what you're talking about. If I'm talking about something from the New Testament, say Jesus's miracles, these are not stories, these are things that Jesus did, these happened. I say this passage from the Bible, I don't like calling things, this story from the Bible we've heard today, if we're talking about the New Testament, because...

these are passages and I like catch myself out sometimes and like the story from the Bible today is no it's not it's a passage from the Bible because how are they going to understand like well Helen read us these stories where are they this passage is and I will tell it's from Luke's gospel you know very simply if I'm talking if we're talking about creation and the creation stories which are in the Bible so there's that I'd like to differentiate between what

What is the history? So there's lot in the Old Testament, which is history. So these are Psalms are songs and poems and explain what things are in really simple terms, but tell the truth with creation story is a passage in the Bible, but it is a story that people were told. And there are two different creation stories as well.

we froze a little bit here.

can we stop on that? when I found that out that there are creation right there, I was like, is this a conspiracy theory that there's really two? And then I started learning that like, scholars really affirm

So there are different ways of understanding creation, like there are creation stories from First Nations people in Australia, from people in Africa, they all have their creation stories.

and we have ours

Okay.

in the US, often when people say what you just said, we identify them as, well, they're not Christian. We'll put them into an atheist bucket because they clearly don't understand God. So can you just tell us a little bit more about what that looks like in the UK and as a clergyperson?

Yes.

I think it's just because that's always been what I've been taught and the way I believe that I have never been questioned upon it and never questioned myself upon it and I think maybe that's because where I have gone to church has been you know the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England who are kind of much more

I think in touch with, especially the Church of England because you're in Parish you know there with people day in day out and you're living and working with people and traveling with people. It's all about relationships and it's not like the preacher stands up and everything that person says is true. Sometimes I can preach and not everyone's going to agree with what I say.

and I'm happy for them to question me on it. I think a lot of the creationist ideas might come from what we call over here, which are free churches, which are not part of any denomination. maybe they're right-wing evangelical, charismatic that's maybe where come from, the people in the hierarchy

are maybe seen as infallible, where I go to church we are not infallible at all because I'm one of you. You can disagree with me if you wish and we can talk about it and that's where good conversations happen. But yeah the whole create, I just don't get it because I've never had to come across it.

I love it so is the same reaction that my family member had was like, what are you talking about? And so it was very helpful. Thank you for just sharing with us a little bit about, yeah, we can make all sorts of assumptions about what it means to be a Christian, but there are such a wide range of beliefs on every single topic, right? And so I think what's important for listeners who were told, hey, you have to believe in all of it,

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

as literal or you are not a Christian. That's what I'm trying to get to is like, do you those people who are listening, can you just talk to them a little bit?


Yeah and no you don't!

I like to think is to do with context. we have I obviously believe that Jesus came to save the world and I read the Bible, You know, some of it was written over 3000 years ago. The New Testament was written, you know, 2000 to 1800 years ago. of like how the world was then as much as we know.

culturally, contextually written in such a different time where the patriarchy, well that's how the world ran 100%. We're still like, we're getting there, but there's still a lot of patriarchy going on now. But if you think about how much things have changed, even since the 60s with women's liberation and things like that.

And in 60 years how we've changed, just think how much culture's changed in 2,000 years, 3,000 years. So we have to put some of what the Bible says, in our cultural context as well. They were writing for the people then, they're writing for us now, but we put it within our context and our cultural and contextual beliefs.


So one of the things I'll say that I heard growing up is that, ⁓ the churches in Europe are empty and the people aren't serious about their Christian faith. And so, you know, there's a lot of American Christians that are sent over to Europe to save the Europeans. ⁓ And I'm just curious about what do you think looks like in the UK? I mean, I know that you touched on it, that more people younger are going back to church, but I'm curious about

Christian life in the UK and what that looks My true exposure is I think generally people simply live a quieter faith, a more humble faith, instead of like, you know, showing our faith by singing worship songs randomly in a restaurant and wearing these giant crosses and ⁓ just like kind of this in your face and like, are you saved? you felt while I lived in Europe, like, ⁓ this is a very like American thing.

And that does not mean that people do not take their faith seriously if they're not adhering to these practices. So can you just tell us a little bit more about what it's like?


Yeah, think

we do practice very differently. mean, people sing carols in pubs at Christmas and I, you know, that's as far as we go with singing church songs in pubs and in restaurants and And yeah, it is quieter in some ways, it is much quieter and for some people more personal. I mean, our Christian faith should be lived as family.

the church where I serve is truly a family of people, some of them have been going there since they were babies and you know we're talking about people in their 80s and they are still going to the same church, that is like lived out faith that they are there week in week out, they are serious about their faith but maybe they don't share it out loud as much as maybe we could and I think because

Hmm.


kind of almost like Christian values, like in a good way, kind of within our culture. Like my husband doesn't go to church, doesn't necessarily believe in God, but actually he lives in like a really good Christian life. He cares about people, he cares about justice, he doesn't like to see people downtrodden, he doesn't believe in war. He's, you know, all of these things, like real Christian stuff, it doesn't identify as a Christian. So there's a lot of

Christian people in this country who wouldn't call themselves Christians. The churches probably not as full as we would like them. I don't, I think like that's like anywhere. Some churches are really, really, really full. some aren't. Ours is getting fuller by almost weekly, which is great, but

so many churches do so much outreach, like we call them top-up shops so people can come who are in food poverty and get food for like a couple of quid, so like a couple of dollars for a bag of food, and then they will do prayer meetings off that. So people wouldn't necessarily call that church but that is church, you know, there's toddler groups run by churches everywhere for all our preschoolers, so it's intertwined.


Hmm.


And I think because I'm setting up some new worshipping communities for children and families as well at the moment, they might be very small, but they're church and they're spreading the word and therefore those children are going out and spreading the word. Our church is full once a

Mm-hmm.


we have a church school opposite us and the whole school comes in, 420 children and staff.

every Wednesday morning. Most of those children don't go to church but they're there every Wednesday. So there is a thing there, there's that growth but there's actually also there is a spread of smaller communities that are really deep, entrenched in Christianity and I think that's what's really important.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I love that you're a woman doing this leadership. think that is one of the next iteration of Christianity of what you said. Like a lot of gone back to church very specifically because of sexual abuse.


Yeah.


a big one, Protestant,

Catholic. Now, I think it's fair to say, though, sexual abuse happens in secular places, in camps, and all over. wherever it happens, there needs to be accountability. It needs to be called out. That is very important. But I do think one of the ways for people to start trusting going


Absolutely.


back to a local church is to see more women in these leadership roles. So I would like to ask you what it means for you that you became a priest in a tradition where the women bishops were indeed only recognized in 2014.


it's such a privilege and I think sometimes the word privilege might be overused but it is like every day I am working for God for Jesus and for the people that I am licensed to serve and

To be able to be a woman and be visible and vocal about that, there's no better thing to do. To spread the word of Jesus as a woman, as women did in Jesus' time that people tend to forget that they did. really empowering privileged position to be

And I think it's still a position that even if people don't go to church, they recognise priests as people are there for them and have made sacrifices along the way to do what we do. some of the experience you have completely outweigh the sacrifices you have to make.

how do people are in your denominations and in the UK, how do people respond to that idea still common in many churches, like we mentioned before, that women in church leadership is not biblical and it's not Christian?


Okay.

I would ask them why do you think that? Because I think it's always good to get down to where that actually comes from. Was it something they've always been told? Was it, you know, because women in the early church weren't? Because then I can come back to them and say, you know, yesterday was St. Phoebe's Day. It actually was. She was a deacon in the church.

Paul introduced Romans chapter 16. So there has always been women in leadership. And some of it may come from being brought up in churches where they didn't see. And if you don't see, then you don't think it can happen. Some of it comes from sexism and misogyny, which you can then talk about with people. But actually just opening a Bible and saying, look, there were women.

are we thinking this now? And just cause of why people think that, I think it's really, important. And I have to really take a breath. I haven't had that conversation like that with someone, but I would have to take a really deep breath before I answered. Instead of being like, well, because I am here, because God called me, which is true.

actually opening up conversations and I think when people feel listened to I might not change their mind but at least they will go she listened and she heard me and actually she told me a couple of things that I didn't know before and our church is always evolving and hopefully a lot of that's being stamped out now

It took a long time to get women priests in the Church of England. It took a long time to get women bishops. So it's a generational thing.

a generation of women priests. We haven't done a generation of women bishops yet. And one thing that always makes me smile when I see things against women priests was I was talking to someone who was discerning to train as a priest who was male.

he'd told his daughter who was in primary school and she said daddy you can't you can't do that and he was like why and he said because you're not a woman because her


I love it!


Her experience was that every priest that she had met was a woman.


amazing.

So the next generation is absolutely fine. And I think it's all to do with conversations and getting to know people. And if I have to, you know, I will strongly explain that I had a calling from God that would not let up. it wasn't a want, it was a need. But the fact that they sat down with me and opening up that conversation.

Mm-hmm.


it's good to get in there and try and understand even more.


one of the reasons that I switched from one of the churches that I was at to this one now where I'm being led by a female is that I have two daughters and I did not want to give them this message that you could be anything you want to be except for a church priest, except for a pastor. That just seemed crazy to me. And so I wanted to put them in a place where

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Mm-hmm.


I could really say, you can be anything mean it and I'm giving them structures that show them that that's true.

Yeah,

and that's really beautiful because that's how I feel as well. I've just got one daughter, it's my only child. And yeah, it's the same, exactly the same messaging I want to give to her. So it's really important to have our girls go out there feeling that they literally can do everything that they want to do. So important.

you've spoken openly online about neurodivergence and women's autonomy and LGBTQ plus inclusion. What are the risks and the rewards of being that public as a priest? Why is this so important to you to speak out about these issues?


Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

The rewards for me is that people can see that not all Christians are the same, that actually there are Christians who are not homophobic in any way that will welcome you to church, whatever your sexuality, whatever your gender, God loves us all. I'm gonna quote someone that we both know, Reverend Lizzie.

Her book, and see, this is her book title, is exactly what I believe is that God didn't make us to hate us. And that just, yeah, absolutely. And it's that sentence, I mean, she's just got it there, you know. God made all of us and loves all of us, whatever colour we are, whatever sexuality we are, whatever our gender is, whether we're neurodiverse or not.

Amen.


everyone is welcome and I truly believe in an inclusive church. We believe and we act out where I serve. We see ourselves as an inclusive church. Neurodiversity is really important to me. My daughter's neurodiverse. I am not diagnosed, but I think I'm probably neurodiverse. And I've realised that more as I've

got older everywhere just needs to be a space where people can be themselves and God accepts us as ourselves. if someone's neurodiversity means that they have to stand up and run around during a service because that's how they need to experience it, then that's fine by me. If someone

starts coming to our church as one gender and over time they become someone else, that's fine by me because I love them, God loves them and they should have a space where they can worship and live out their faith without worry or care. it's a real passion of mine. when I started going to church again, after I had Chloe,

I had lively conversation with a friend of mine in a pub and he was really angry at me. And he said, that means, he goes, our friend over there who's gay, you can't be friends with him anymore, can you? I'm like, yeah, I can. But you're Christian, Christians are homophobic. They say it's a sin and I'm like, I don't believe that.

but we have to make ourselves vocal and known. And it's really important, I believe to do that.


Thank you. That's like a warm blanket or a warm cup of tea for people who, I think that's gonna break something beautiful in some people that have been through a lot of pain and trauma from others. So thank you for your

I'm

a bit like the don't get why people would exclude people for one part of them, you know? And I've always felt like that. I didn't think there was an issue being gay when I was at primary school. I thought it was a normal thing. It

wasn't until I got to secondary school I realised people didn't see that as a norm.


when you look at what's happening in the United States right now from far away I would love to hear what people, you don't even have to talk from your perspective, you can or you can't, but what do you think the vibe, the chatter, the scuttlebutt is about like what's going on with

the United States right now, especially guys see it as wow, there's a lot of things that are happening in the name of Jesus. Like, is that coming across to you as well? Do you see that the people who are doing these things are very vocal about saying this is in the name of Jesus? Because there are a lot of people who are in charge ⁓ promoting these messages as if this is the Christian way to


No.


to do everything.


we look and we go my god that is not Jesus I only access news like on my phone or my computer I won't watch news on television can't do it it's too much I think most people I know over here are just like

Donald Trump, what is going on? What is going on with MAGA and the Republican Party and some of the governors? And it's scary and it's not in the name of Jesus. It's in the name of our assertion of power and control. And it's a scary place to be because we can see some of it Starting to happen over here. There's been

certain things happen over here in the last couple of weeks that are really scary as well with the the Christian nationalism and like the full-on nationalism stuff and it worries us and it scares us and I pray for America all the time I hope that not in a bad way I don't how can you have another three years of what's going on I don't know how

your country's going to be after that period of time and it worries me. I have plans to hopefully come over the US next year. And when I've mentioned that to people, they're like, do you think you should go? Like I'm going into some war zone. It's just a real worry because a lot of what happens in America over time comes over to us. So some of it's a selfish, my God, and some of it is like,

Thank goodness for people who are speaking out against it. Thank goodness for your governor, who is, from my perspective, is doing a brilliant job at just turning things on his head. Thank God. ⁓ these are, I love him. I'm like, Democrats, hello. And for the court today that I heard, I think it was your yesterday,


Thank you, Gavin Newsom.


who said that the withdrawal of funds from Harvard was against the law. So I'm really glad that we can see pockets opening up and people being vocal against MAGA. it's a really sad, awful thing to see, you know, vaccinations being taken away in Florida and stuff like that. And just like, you're playing with people's health, literally playing with life and death. And it's scary.

You know, that's my perspective from living like thousands of miles away. I don't know whether I could live through it every day, like you guys have to.


a painful time, but fortunately there is still enough freedom of speech. There are enough people who believe in that, that we can speak out. And my hope is that we can help people see that MAGA Christianity is just one our Christian faith that's so much bigger, right?


Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, and it's in my view it's not Christianity at all. Yeah.


And what

part of it do you feel that way? obviously those are hot button words.


It's

just so exclusive to people and it's turning people away and taking rights away from people and playing with people's health and saying, no, you can't have that because that's what I say. When you're taking away women's health care, women's lives are being put on the line because they can't receive the health care that they need.

Even like with mis- I don't think people understand that, you know, if someone has a miscarriage, sometimes the treatment they have to have you know, is abortion because the baby's died. yeah, yeah. And that is awful that women, and women can't then get that health care and women have died. And about power and control. And I'm in power and this is what I'm going to do. And to

Yeah, that happened to me. I had that happen to me.

Mm-hmm.


hell with everybody else who's not rich. It's scary.

what does give you hope as a Christian right now for the world? what do you hope to see in the body of Christ? How do you hope that we as one body of Christ, the over two billion Christians in the world,

when this world feels so upside down and so painful and there's so much war and so much death and so much hate and division, the fact that we are as Jesus people, as one collective, we are the largest religion on the planet still, and we are the body of Christ. And if we want to represent him, what can we do that world the world that we want?

through the lens of Jesus.


I have hope that people are sent out to care for one another and to love one another, whether that is a smile walking down the street, whether that's handing someone a coffee and a sandwich who is homeless, for people to pray for the good to happen. And if as many people as us, if we can pray for good, it will happen. But not just pray, just go out and do the good and be seen doing the good.

I truly believe if people are seen doing good, that multiplies. And I think that can happen if we all go out and try our best to do something good every day and be loving and be caring to everyone we come across, whoever they are, wherever they come from. And I think it's quite simple. It's just going out and loving people in the best way that you possibly can.


So as we close today, there will be people listening who haven't been prayed over in a long time. would you do us the honor of praying for them now?


I will do. Thank you Alexis.

The Lord God loves you wherever you are on your journey. The Lord is with you even when he feels so distant and far away.

wherever you are on your journey, whether you're constructing or reconstructing your faith.

Remember that at any point just take a breath and remember you are loved, whomever you are. And I pray for all those listeners of the Sacred Slope and all the people you know. May your hearts be filled with the light and the spirit of God and many blessings to you in God's name, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Amen.


Amen. Reverend Helen, thank you so much for being with us today. What a blessing.


Thank you for having me,

Alexis. That's been fab. Thank you.

Thank you for being with us today on the Sacred Slope. If you'd like to nominate a pastor, priest or reverend, send me an email at Alexis@thesacredslope.com. Music was by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin and Sean Spence. I'm Alexis Rice, may the fruit of the spirit guide you this week.

Go in peace, friends.